Ending the Scourge: The Need for the STOP CSAM Act

Chairman Josh Hawley (R-MO)SPEAKER_06

this first hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committee's Subcommittee on Crime and Counterterrorism to order. It is a privilege to serve as the chair of this subcommittee during this Congress, and I'm equally delighted to have as the ranking member my colleague, Senator Dick Durbin, who is on his way over from lunch. His staff tells me I can blame Senator Schumer. I said, I blame Senator Schumer for so many things. But he will be he will be joining us shortly. It's really it's a delight to have Senator Durbin as the ranking member on this committee, and it's particularly a privilege to partner with him on this important topic that we're here to discuss today. Senator Durbin and I have worked together on a number of initiatives. I don't think any is more important than confronting the scourge of child sexual exploitation, or CSAM. You know, that's an anodyne-sounding abbreviation, but as I hope everybody in the room appreciates and those who are listening online understand, that abbreviation stands in for a terrifying, horrifying reality. We're talking about, in a word, child pornography. We're talking about child sexual exploitation, child sexual abuse. The amount of this material online, available online, is truly astounding. And we're going to talk about that over the course of today's hearing. But of course, these aren't just statistics. Every single instance of CSAM online represents a real child, a real person who has been tragically and oftentimes life-alteringly abused. And it's the conviction of myself, and I know Senator Durbin, and I hope every member of not just this subcommittee, but the entire Senate Judiciary Committee, that we have to do something about this. We've talked about it for years. The time to take definitive action is here, and that's why the legislative framework that we are discussing today, I think, is so incredibly important. But let me just give you a sense of the scope of the problem that we're talking about. Worldwide, 302 million children have been victims of child sexual abuse material and child sexual exploitation online. Let me say that again. Worldwide, 302 million children. 300 million children globally have been subjected to online solicitation, solicitation, that is, for some sort of sexual abuse or following some sort of sexual abuse. To give you another angle on the scope of this problem, when an online platform becomes aware of instances of child sexual exploitation, under our law, they're required to report those instances to the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children, NCMEC, their their CyberTipline. And we're delighted to have the CEO of NCMEC with us today. But just consider this data. In 2014, the number of reported instances of online child sexual sexual exploitation in 2014 was 1.1 million. Now, that's a staggering number, but consider where it is today. In 2023, the year for which we have the most recent full data, that number was 36.2 million. 1.1 million in 2014, 36.2 million reports of online child sexual exploitation in 2023. And the number of urgent reports, those are cases where the child is thought to be at present risk, you might say clear and present danger, that number has grown by 140% in just the last 3 years. If you think about the images themselves, the poster behind me gives you some sense of this. Back in 2004, there were 450,000 images reported online of child sexual abuse material. Again, that number in itself is huge, nothing like what we're seeing today. The number today tops 104 million known reported images of child sexual abuse online. This is truly a crisis. It is an epidemic, and it's not a theory. It affects far too many children in the United States of America, to say nothing of the, as we've seen, hundreds of millions of children worldwide. So, the question is, what are we going to do about it? And that's what we're here to talk about today. Senator Durbin and I, in the last Congress, introduced what I believe is truly landmark legislation, which, I might add, passed the Senate Judiciary Committee, in what is nothing short of a miracle, by a unanimous vote. This legislation would protect child victims and witnesses in courts with new rights, new safeguards, new procedures. It would expand the scope of restitution provisions in current law. It would enhance the CyberTipline. It would create a child online protection board to allow parents and victims to go and argue their case to have material taken down and to receive restitution. And for my money, maybe most importantly, it would allow victims finally to have their day in court. It would allow victims to get into court and to bring suit against online platforms that are hosting this material and making money on it, which brings me to the culpability of Big Tech. Big Tech has said for years, Oh, we're doing all we can. But we know because we've heard the testimony from folks who have sat right where our distinguished witnesses are sitting today. We've heard the testimony of parents who have gone to the Big Tech companies, have reported instances of child sexual abuse material online, including victims who reported their own abuse material: I was abused. These are my images online. Please take them down. The Big Tech companies often will fob them off on some complicated procedure that never bears any fruit or just flat-out refuse to do anything. And I'll never forget the testimony of one mother who sat right there at that table and said, When I told this tech company—it was Snapchat in that instance—when I told them about the sexual abuse material that was online, they just laughed at me and said, 'There's nothing that you can do. You can't sue us.' Well, ladies and gentlemen, it's time to change that. It is time to allow victims to have their day in court. One of the most important foundational rights that we have as Americans is the right to get into court, to get in front of a jury, and to vindicate the personal rights given to us by our Constitution, by our systems of law, by our system of laws, and dare I say, by nature and nature's God. And that right is currently denied to parents and victims in this country. You can't sue these platforms. They're protected by congressional legislation. It's time to change that. This bill would finally allow victims to have their day in court, and guess what? The Big Tech companies absolutely hate it. They despise it, which is how you know it's a good idea. In fact, it's how you know it's essential. Listen, I will never forget watching the FTC some years ago fine Facebook at the time. I think it was $1 billion. Maybe it was even more than that. What happened to Facebook's stock price the next day? It went up. They didn't care. Did they change their behavior? No. Did they do anything different? No. They just plowed straight ahead. But you know what these tech companies fear? They fear accountability before a jury of their peers. They fear a courtroom. They don't want to be accountable in court. They don't want victims, they don't want parents to have the right to sue them in an open court. They don't want to be held liable civilly, fairly. They don't want to be subject to due process. It is time to make them subject. It is time to impose civil liability. It's time to give victims this right. And that is what this bill would do among the other important procedural safeguards and reforms that I mentioned just a moment ago. I want to thank everybody who's here in attendance. We have so many folks here from child protection organizations, so many of you who work in this field, who are literally in the trenches every day protecting children. Thank you for your incredible work, and thank you to our incredible witnesses who have joined us today. It's truly an all-star panel. And now, let me introduce the witnesses. When Senator Durbin gets here, when the witnesses are finished, we'll allow him to make a statement. But let me introduce our witnesses, and then we'll have the opportunity to hear from each of them. We have Michelle DeLaune, who is the president and chief executive officer of the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children. She previously served eight years as NCMEC's chief operating officer. We're delighted to have you, Ms. DeLaune. We've got John Tanagho, who is the executive director of the International Justice Mission Center to End Online Sexual Exploitation of Children. The center protects children in the Philippines, where nearly half a million children are sexually abused in order to produce this online CSAM material. This happens especially through live streaming, and I think Mr. Tanagho will testify to that effect today. We have Gregory Schiller, who is the CEO of the Child Rescue Coalition. This is a nonprofit organization that rescues children from sexual abuse by building technology for law enforcement to identify and arrest and prosecute child predators. Thank you, Mr. Schiller, for being here. Taylor Sines, who is a survivor advocate. We're so glad to have you, Taylor. Specifically, Taylor is a survivor of internet-facilitated online enticement, child sexual sexual exploitation, and CSAM. Her case was one of the largest online enticement, sextortion cases prosecuted at the time, with over 300 victims, 300 victims of the convicted perpetrator. And we have John Pizzuro, who is the CEO and co-founder of Raven, a firm that focuses on legislative and policy solutions for child trafficking and child exploitation. Previously, John spent 25 years in the New Jersey State Police conducting, managing, and leading investigations in terrorism and organized crime, narcotics trafficking, and child exploitation. He spent his last six years as the Internet Crimes Against Children commander. Now, it's the custom of this committee and subcommittee to swear in our witnesses when they appear, so if I could ask each of you to rise and to raise your right hand, and then we'll get started. Do you swear that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Fantastic. Let's give the witnesses a chance now to make opening statements. Ms. DeLaune, we'll start with you, and then we'll just go down the panel. Thank you for being here. The floor is yours.

Michelle DeLauneSPEAKER_09

Thank you so much, and good afternoon, Chairman Hawley, Ranking Member Durbin, and the members of the subcommittee. My name is Michelle DeLaune, and I am the president and CEO at the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. NCMEC is a nonprofit organization created in 1984 by child advocates to help find missing children, reduce child sexual exploitation, and prevent child victimization. And I'm honored to be here today to share NCMEC's perspective on the need for the STOP CSAM Act. When NCMEC testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee two years ago, we advised that we had reached an inflection point in our nation's efforts to combat online child sexual exploitation. We have now passed the inflection point, but we have not missed the opportunity to work together to pass legislation to require meaningful and enhanced reporting by online platforms, to create meaningful incentives for these companies to ensure their platforms protect children from predators, and to support survivors. As the congressionally designated clearinghouse on issues related to child sexual exploitation, NCMEC remains at the forefront of the emerging threats that impact child safety online. Today, we're witnessing evolving threats in child sexual exploitation with the emergence of generative artificial intelligence technologies, online enticement including sextortion, and a recent spike of violent online groups that have resulted in some of the most egregious online enticement reports that we've seen to date. For more than 25 years, the CyberTipline has served as the online mechanism for members of the public and electronic service providers to report incidents of suspected child sexual exploitation. Last year, we saw an unprecedented drop in CyberTipline reports submitted to NCMEC. In 2023, we received 36.2 million reports. Last year, we received 20.5 million reports. Now, some of this decrease can be explained by a new feature that we introduced allowing tech platforms to bundle related reports. We view this as a positive development as it streamlines the reporting process and enables law enforcement and NCMEC to more quickly address high-priority cases. So, when we adjust for the bundled reports, we see that 29.2 million incidents of child sexual exploitation were submitted to the CyberTipline last year, but that still leaves us with a 7 million decrease in reports. And that's a remarkable decline in reporting, particularly in a year when Congress, supported by many members of this subcommittee, passed the REPORT Act that mandates that platforms report child sex trafficking and online enticement for the first time. While we continue to analyze the drop in incidents, we believe that there are three contributing factors. Number one, NCMEC worked with Meta to remove a handful of images from their hash bank and its reporting process that violated Meta's terms of service, but did not constitute child sexual abuse material. We estimate that that may account for a decrease of up to 200,000 reports. Number two, for unknown reasons, several online platforms with a history of consistent reporting to the CyberTipline submitted far fewer reports in 2024. The platforms included Google, X, Discord, Microsoft, Synchronous, all of which reported at least 20% fewer reports last year than the year prior. And number three, we believe that Facebook Messenger's full implementation of end-to-end encryption significantly contributed to the 7 million drop in the reports in 2024. So, while we're deeply concerned by the decline, particularly in a year with the REPORT Act, which should have increased the incident volume, we are equally concerned about the inconsistent and poor quality of reports being submitted by many platforms. So, moving forward, things must change. NCMEC supports the passage of legislative improvements in the STOP CSAM Act to require platforms to include specific information in their CyberTipline reports, to require that online platforms report imminent and planned child sexual exploitation crimes, to require online platforms to issue annual transparency reports related to their child protection efforts, to establish a report and remove program to make it easier for survivors to have their images removed, and to improve the privacy protections and safeguarding when a child must participate in a federal court proceeding. I want to thank you again for the opportunity to appear before the subcommittee to discuss the need for the STOP CSAM Act. Each individual provision of this bill will significantly support survivors of online child sexual exploitation, and we encourage the committee to ensure that the bill's provisions pass Congress this year. Like you, we believe that every child deserves a safe childhood, and I thank you and look forward to answering any questions you might have.

Chairman Josh Hawley (R-MO)SPEAKER_06

Thank you very much, Ms. DeLaune, for being here. Mr. Tanagho.

John TanaghoSPEAKER_07

Chairman Hawley, Ranking Member Durbin, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to testify at this important hearing. I work for International Justice Mission, a nongovernment organization protecting people in poverty from violence in 19 countries. For 27 years, IJM has strengthened justice systems to hold traffickers and violent offenders accountable, support survivors on their journey to safety and healing, and reduce the prevalence of violent crimes by up to 86%. Now, I spent 7 years overseas leading teams to combat what the Department of Justice calls virtual child sex trafficking. This is the in-person sexual abuse of children to create new CSAM, while offenders, often Americans, watch and direct the abuse online in real time through live streaming. It's pay-per-view CSAM. According to our research, nearly half a million children are sex-trafficked in this way in the Philippines alone. Make no mistake, though, this is an American problem. One IJM study found 34% of cases involved U.S. offenders. Another study found that in an 18-month period, individuals in the United States sent over $7.3 million to the Philippines in payments that were flagged by financial institutions as suspicious transactions for child exploitation. And a quick search online reveals that Americans in all 10 states represented on this subcommittee have been convicted for sexually abusing children online, including in the Philippines. Now, I think what's important to note is that even when the offenders are here and the livestreaming victims are overseas, the threat to American kids from these offenders is very real. And that's because offenders who consume CSAM are more likely to abuse children in person. Research shows that livestreaming offenders pose an even greater risk because they've arguably crossed the psychological barrier to contact offend by directing live sexual abuse of a child. So if we want to make America safer, we should invest in holding livestreaming offenders accountable. But to do that, we need companies to prioritize the safety and privacy of victims and survivors by expediting detection, reporting, and removal of CSAM. At the same time, the sheer scale of child sexual abuse online requires that companies make it harder for criminals to abuse kids in the first place by making their products and their services safe by design, and using tools and measures to disrupt these active crime scenes. Today, livestreaming is a major source of new CSAM. And that's why Congress should pass laws that incentivize companies to disrupt and deter both the production and the distribution of CSAM, including in live videos. Now, 2 weeks ago, Australia's online safety regulator had this to say on Australian National Radio. Quote, "There are a range of markers or signals they can look at. They all have technologies that they can use to identify whether child sexual abuse is happening in real time. Most companies have said they're doing nothing because it's too expensive. These are trillion-dollar companies that have a responsibility to make sure that their platforms are not misused for the most grievous kinds of harm. Willful blindness, as I would call it." End quote. Now, the previous version of the STOP CSAM Act proposed several important policies. IJM's work with thousands of survivors reveals that access to restitution is a critical piece to recovery and a vital form of justice. It is tangible recognition of the harm done to them. But oftentimes, the parents of child victims are complicit in their abuse, and survivors may not have a bank account to receive and manage restitution. That's why court-appointed trustees are so important. They can ensure that survivors receive the compensation they deserve regardless of their age or where they live. Moreover, enhanced CyberTipline report requirements will ensure that providers provide enough information so law enforcement can identify and locate victims and suspects. And the reporting requirements will finally help policymakers and the American public know what companies are or are not doing to address CSAM. Finally, survivors should have recourse to require companies to remove their CSAM online. I think that the notice-and-takedown framework should also require that once companies are on notice of this CSAM, that they should take effective steps to prevent the republication or uploading of that same CSAM on their platforms. Now is the time for Congress to act. I look forward to your questions.

Chairman Josh Hawley (R-MO)SPEAKER_06

Thank you very much. Mr. Schiller. Mr. Schiller, is your microphone on? Make sure that red— there you go.

Gregory SchillerSPEAKER_05

I knew I was— there it is. I knew I was going to do that.

Chairman Josh Hawley (R-MO)SPEAKER_06

Sorry. Good. You're good.

Gregory SchillerSPEAKER_05

Let me start again. Good afternoon, Chairman Hawley, Ranking Member Durbin, distinguished senators of this committee. Thank you for the invitation and opportunity to speak here today. My name is Greg Schiller. I am the CEO of the Child Rescue Coalition. The Child Rescue Coalition is a nonprofit organization that rescues children from sexual abuse by building technology for law enforcement, free of charge, to identify, arrest, and prosecute child predators. Headquartered in Boca Raton, Florida, we developed powerful technology, which has been a significant tool for law enforcement around the globe, now utilized in 106 countries. Our technology has improved the success rates of investigators and policing operations in the ongoing pursuit to identify, apprehend, and convict individuals and networks associated with child sexual exploitation. I have the great honor of leading an incredible team of technologists, programmers, and developers, being supported by a dedicated board of directors, all of whom who have the same goal and one mission: to end child exploitation around the world. Prior to my recent beginning as CEO of the Child Rescue Coalition, I was a career prosecutor for more than 21 years. In fact, it is the only other job I have had since law school: first, as a state attorney in Palm Beach County for 12 years and then as an assistant United States attorney in the Southern District of Florida for the past 9 years. I have specialized in prosecuting violations of online child exploitation and human trafficking, convicting more than 350 online offenders during that time. But no matter how many predators I acquired lengthy prison sentences for, more and more children are being victimized online. In the safest of our homes across the United States, parents do everything to protect their families. They lock their doors, video surveillance, security systems. Our state and local police, fueled by the Internet Crimes Against Children task forces, Homeland Security, the FBI, U.S. Marshals, and other federal agencies, do everything within their power and budgets to protect our children. But despite all of this, more and more children are falling victim to online predators every day. Two things must be done: one reactive and one proactive. First, as this body is well aware and aims to do, we must continue to pass legislation that will protect victims of online sexual abuse. Congress has provided us the tools through violations primarily listed in chapters 110 and 117 of the United States Criminal Code related to enticement of minors; production, advertising, transmission, distribution, receipt, and possession of CSAM; and related offenses of sextortion and live streaming. But all too often, the most devious offenders find new ways to use the internet and technology to exploit our children. We are reacting to the ever-changing landscape, plugging new holes as they develop, gaps the STOP CSAM Act aims to fill. But secondarily and just as importantly, we must proactively educate our children on the inherent dangers of the internet, social media, apps, and online gaming. As the Greek philosopher Socrates famously noted, you don't know what you don't know. And frankly, our children have no idea how dangerous the world is. Never before in the history of mankind has a place existed where children and adults can engage in a space without any supervision or protection. The internet, apps, and online games provide that space. But it is not our children's fault, because they don't know what they don't know. And although parents try their best to protect their children, there is not one amongst us over the age of 30 that knows what it's like to be a child with a smartphone and communicating through apps. The social and emotional pressures are so immense that children are afraid to tell their parents when they're being harmed for fear of losing that single device that was the gateway of their problems. We must do more. That is why for years, I and the Child Rescue Coalition have partnered with the National Center to teach tens of thousands of children and parents about the dangers they face. Yet, there are so many prosecutors and police who couldn't take their experiences and are brave enough to face a room of eighth graders. It's no easy task. The internet was created without the thought of child protection. It has grown by exponential bounds. Our government, law enforcement, and citizens of this country are trying to play catch-up. We have been playing catch-up for more than 40 years since the ARPANET, the precursor to the internet, was developed, and it seems like every day a new app or variety of child exploitation comes online. For example, I recently prosecuted a network of child pornographers—excuse me, child exploiters who were using the dark web. They created, ran, and brought together thousands of members to exchange sinister, painful, and evil CSAM, the worst I've ever seen in my career. Those individuals received decades upon decades in prison, and one received life in prison. But what safeguards are there for a child who finds their way onto the dark web? None. Or the case of Robert Solove, who in 2021 I prosecuted, and created CSAM of an 18-month-old child in his care in Boca Raton, Florida, in his home, and shared the images through an app to other individuals, including an undercover HSI agent. The child was thankfully rescued by HSI and the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office. Solove also developed an online relationship with a 13-year-old girl in a different state. He directed her to produce CSAM images and videos herself and send them to him through a different app. If that wasn't enough, he collected CSAM of other children from several internet platforms and stored them on his cell phone. While prosecuting this case, although we obtained a 50-year prison sentence for Solove, we also petitioned the court to appoint a guardian ad litem for each of the child victims, something that this act aims to help do, hired an expert to calculate restitution, and was able to obtain an order of restitution of $1.3 million for those children. But I would be remiss if I did not remind this body that for each of these monsters who prey on our children, there are police officers and federal agents who put their lives on the line every single day to protect these vulnerable victims. They push the limits of their sanity as they converse with predators online in chat rooms. They put their safety in jeopardy every time they execute warrants to find evidence against such predators. Some, as we know far too well in South Florida, pay the ultimate sacrifice, when just 49 months ago, two FBI agents were murdered executing a CSAM search warrant; three others were injured. Whether it is social media apps like Snapchat or Instagram or online games, our children are being lured by enticers, online CSAM producers, and sextortionists to encrypted applications to commit their crimes and turn children against their families in some instances. As a prosecutor, I fought to take down predators one at a time, protecting victims one at a time. And now, as the CEO of the Child Rescue Coalition, we aim to help law enforcement around the globe proactively fight against online child exploitation, stop child sexual abuse, and aid in the rescuing of children. The STOP CSAM Act that this body is hearing about today and has put forward provides so many needed stopgaps that federal prosecutors will be able to utilize in combating child exploitation and protecting victims. Just a few examples: the amendment to Title 18, United States Code, Section 3509(m) has previously hindered our ability to work with victims of CSAM in their civil pursuits. As currently written, that law gives the victims the right to review their images in law enforcement custody during, quote, "any criminal proceeding." This has been interpreted as when the criminal charges are filed until the judgment is entered at sentencing. But in most cases, victims are not notified of their images in a criminal prosecution until just before or even after sentencing, when restitution is being sought on their behalf. STOP CSAM extends the time to review to give victims and their civil attorneys the time and opportunity to more appropriately pursue civil remedies against criminal defendants by a year. STOP CSAM creates a much-needed appropriation to the judiciary for the guardian ad litem program under 3509(h). Many times our victims are violated by their parents or caregivers, as we've already heard. And similarly, STOP CSAM provides structure and funding for the judiciary to appoint trustees to manage victim restitution for minors, incapacitated victims, and foreign-born victims. With live-streaming cases rising to a never-before-seen level, this will give us the tools to protect both American and foreign-born children. STOP CSAM will require tech platforms to provide more information to NCMEC within a specific period. Too often, by the time the information reaches law enforcement and prosecutors, the offender has obfuscated their account or even moved from the residence they committed the act from, impeding law enforcement's abilities to act on the violation. STOP CSAM mandates a common-sense reporting requirement to the tech platforms so that law enforcement can protect our children. STOP CSAM will hold them accountable, including criminal liability, on tech platforms who intentionally host or store or knowingly promote or facilitate online exploitation of a child. This is parallel to the related criminal statutes that I've prosecuted under. From my experience and perspective as a former Assistant U.S. Attorney, I pray that this body has the courage to say no more to child exploitation of children. Place the stopgaps where they are needed in law that exists to protect our children. Give law enforcement the tools they need to fight back, while at the same time encouraging schools, parents, and community organizations to please educate our children regarding the dangers of the internet. And on behalf of myself and the Child Rescue Coalition, I thank you for the opportunity and look forward to your questions today.

Chairman Josh Hawley (R-MO)SPEAKER_06

Thank you very much, Mr. Schiller. Thank you, Ms. Sines.

Taylor SinesSPEAKER_02

Thank you, Chairman Hawley, and Ranking Member Durbin, and all of the other senators on this subcommittee. I am in front of you today during a time that will go down as a pivotal moment in fighting to protect our youth online. I was a freshman in high school in 2014 when I was approached by an online predator. He used the platform Facebook to first contact me and hid behind the account name called Closed Turn. I remember that night. I was at TGI Fridays having dinner with my family. On the car ride home is when I opened the messages. He had stated that I had to get in contact with him. He immediately said that it was very important. At first, I ignored the messages, but he would only send more. I replied to the message asking who this was, and they responded back saying, I have something against you. You don't want anyone to see this. He had stated that he could not tell me what it was or who he had gotten it from. He told me that I couldn't tell anyone. He tricked me, making me believe that he already had compromising photos of me. In my teenage brain, I panicked and I thought I had no other choice but to comply with his orders. So, I did what I was told and this began the torment that I endured. Despite his warnings not to tell anyone, I immediately disclosed to my school resource officer as soon as I got to school. He told me that there was nothing that he could do for me and to just ignore it and it would go away. He said that he couldn't help me in any way, even making me feel ashamed. He had no resources. He said he knew no one. After that, I thought there was nothing that anyone could do, especially because my school resource officer was a deputy for my local sheriff's department. If he's telling me that there is no one there to help, then it has to be true. After suffering for two years, I finally decided to take my voice back and share that I was being abused. The offender made good on his promises and took to Facebook to exploit me. He rapidly posted the hundreds of images and videos of me, making public pages and user accounts for more leverage. They were posted for the world to see. At that point, my family and I knew that we had to get law enforcement involved. We called 911. We explained what was happening as my offender continued to post online. When an officer got to my house, we explained the situation, and I remember him looking at me and saying, Look, I'm just a road deputy. I don't know much about this stuff. At this point, I had lost any hope that there was help. I had lost all hope that anyone even believed me. After a moment, he looked at me and he said, But I do know someone who may be able to help. Not much long after the phone call, there was a knock at my door. A detective who worked cybersecurity for the same department my school resource officer was from. As the detective and I sat in my kitchen and I shared my experience with him, he was on the phone with personnel from Facebook attempting to get the content removed. We were told that the profiles, public pages, and content would not be taken down as it did not violate their guidelines, guidelines that most companies still do not have in place. That was April of 2016. It took time and, as we built connections within these platforms, we were able to get the content down within a few hours of the original postings, versus it taking a day or maybe a little bit longer to be taken off the platform. You have to understand, every minute, every second is filled with fear and anxiety for these victims. I consider myself lucky. Lucky that, in the end, I found a law enforcement agent who listened to me and who believed me. Lucky that my local state attorney offered a helping hand and together they set me up immediately with a trauma therapist. Lucky that they didn't give up, and it's because of their hard work that I get to sit in front of you today. I have connected with other survivors throughout the years, and I can tell you that my experience is rare. Not every victim has the same positive outcomes that I did. It took time from when I disclosed in April of 2016 to get to sentencing for my offender. He was eventually tracked down, as he masked his IP address, and arrested August 3rd, 2017. From 2017 to 2021 was a back and forth of whether or not there would be a trial or maybe we would get lucky and he would plead guilty. Finally, he pled guilty March 12th, 2021. Four years ago from tomorrow is the day that he was sentenced to 75 years in federal prison with no chance of parole. At the time of his sentencing, he had 375 other victims. The unique, unconsidered aspect of this crime is that we are trafficked right from our homes, right from our schools, from our communities. Anywhere that our cell phone goes with us, we can be trafficked. For these children, it feels that there is no escape and no end. While I no longer have content circulating the public web or any public platforms, my images could continue to be traded on the dark web. And what happens if they're ever publicly posted again? The STOP CSAM Act is that is currently being considered will help ensure the safety of our children online and hold Big Tech accountable in reporting and protecting them while they use their platforms. The victim protections outlined in this bill will help others have a more positive experience with the criminal justice system overall. This bill could help give victims and survivors the opportunity to take back their lives and protect them from further victimization. Throughout my experience, I learned that this happened to me, not because of me, and it does not define me. Please help us continue the fight to protect our children online. Thank you for this opportunity.

Chairman Josh Hawley (R-MO)SPEAKER_06

Thank you very much. Thank you, Ms. Sines, for that powerful testimony. Thanks for your courage in sharing it. Mr. Pizzuro.

John PizzuroSPEAKER_04

Chairman Hawley, Ranking Member Durbin, and distinguished members of the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today for the STOP CSAM Act. For me, there's no more pressing issue than safeguarding our children and helping those on the front lines who protect our children. So much so that Raven was created with the singular mission of transforming the nation's response to child exploitation. I spent 25 years in the New Jersey State Police, and I can confidently tell you that this legislation will positively impact our ability to arrest more offenders and protect more victims. Many child victims of sexual abuse and CSAM do not report their abuse until they are adults, and the changes provided in this bill will allow them to have the support they need and deserve. Walking into a courtroom to testify on any topic intimidates most people, even testifying here today. Now imagine having to do that in front of your abuser as someone who suffered unimaginable crimes at their hands. They deserve our best protection. They also deserve privacy. Since co-founding Raven, I've talked to survivors whose personal information was exposed through discovery in criminal and civil cases. Their online abusers were then able to find this information and use it to traumatize their victims all over again. Simply redacting their names is oftentimes not enough to protect them. STOP CSAM provides language that will allow law enforcement prosecutors to protect them from being further victimized for their entire life. This bill would require providers to report apparent, planned, and imminent violations. Platforms often detect grooming behavior or other signs of child in distress. Still, they have total discretion to decide whether or not to report information about planned or imminent offenses. This revised language will undoubtedly result in saving children from abuse before it happens. As a former ICAC commander, I can say our best day is when we rescue a child before they are abused. Tech platforms are only required to send a report when they are aware of a specified violation. However, only the information that must be contained is the provider's contact information. That's it. Providers can, in their sole discretion, include information about the facts and circumstances of the apparent violation. There is no required information or uniformity. You've heard the statement garbage in and garbage out. In many instances, that's what we get. Some providers even submit blank reports, which is all they are currently need to comply with their legal obligations. These platforms often possess much information on a particular offender or account and simply choose not to report it. This type of reporting frustrates law enforcement as it is often impossible to act on and begin an investigation. We can no longer trust them to submit what is needed when so many do the bare minimum required. As online child exploitation is getting worse, law enforcement's ability to respond is hindered by inadequate reporting from the tech industry. STOP CSAM would require the provider to submit limited additional data in its reports. These added requirements would provide law enforcement with much more information than they currently receive. They would likely result in quicker prioritization of leads, actionable investigations, and more arrests and prosecutions, and undoubtedly the protection of more victims. Raven is here to provide expertise based upon their real-life experience in the field. We are here to support legislative solutions that are desperately needed. Law enforcement simply cannot do more with less. They desperately need your help and crucial legislation be passed. The STOP CSAM Act would make meaningful changes that will better protect victims, support law enforcement, and promote transparency and accountability—most important thing—in the tech industry. The STOP CSAM Act was first introduced 2 years ago. How many children have fallen victim to online child exploitation since, while the bill is being held by those who refuse to compromise and insist on politically divisive changes? I just cannot understand how anyone would favor having no legislation at all, leaving our children at risk, if they cannot get the exact legislation they want. I just want to simply, and Raven simply wants to protect our children and those who defend them. That's why I implore you to have STOP CSAM passed. Thank you.

Chairman Josh Hawley (R-MO)SPEAKER_06

Thank you very much, Mr. Pizzuro. Thank you again to all of our witnesses. Let's start the questioning. And Mr. Tanagho, I want to start with something that you said about these companies in your experience. You said that they often complain that it's just too expensive to take any sort of enforcement action or deterrence action. Can you just elaborate on that? I mean, what's been your experience when working with these major platforms that often are hosting the streaming that you were talking about, for example?

John TanaghoSPEAKER_07

Well, the the quote that I referenced comes from Julie Inman Grant, Australia's eSafety Commissioner. And thankfully, Australia has had a robust Online Safety Act and regulatory powers for several years now. And so eSafety has been engaging with tech companies to understand what are they doing to address CSAM, what are they not doing. I think one of the most powerful things was in 2022 when eSafety published summaries of transparency notice responses. And specific to the question of what were companies doing to address livestream child sexual abuse, almost all of them said nothing. They weren't detecting it, they weren't disrupting it, they weren't reporting it. And I think that quote comes from her continual engagement with these companies to try to understand why. Why would you ever look the other way when there's an active crime scene happening on your platform, through your services, and you have the technology to detect it in real time? And so apparently what she has been told is it's too expensive, which tells me that their priorities are absolutely backwards.

Chairman Josh Hawley (R-MO)SPEAKER_06

What a great way to put it. They are absolutely backwards. And I want to just highlight what you said there, that the companies complain frequently that, oh, it's just too expensive for us, they're not disrupting, they're not detecting, they're not deterring. And yet in 2023, Meta had a profit—now profit, not revenues, profits—$23 billion. Google, $60 billion in profits in one year. Apple, $97 billion in profits. Amazon, $27 billion in profits. So don't tell me that they don't have the wherewithal financially to disrupt, detect, and report. They absolutely do. The truth is they don't want to do it. And right now they're really not compelled to do it. I want to show everybody a picture of a young girl. This is a profile of what is a young woman who's clearly underage. You can just hold it up, guys. Let's have a look at this. So here is what appears to be the picture of a young girl whose birthday, by the way, indicated that she was a minor. Now, the thing about this girl is it's fake. The New Mexico attorney general created this profile as part of that office's investigation into the behavior of these online platforms. So they create a profile with a date of birth that clearly indicates she is a minor, she is underage. And what does she get from this Facebook profile? What does she get? She was immediately barraged with friend requests from men between the ages of 18 to 40. Request after request uses sexually aggressive languages. This account received numerous sexually explicit chat messages each week, often with images, sexually explicit images, from the men who were messaging her. The account received an offer to be a sugar baby for $5,000 a week. The account was added to a chat group focused on cultivating young girls between the ages of 12 and 16 for sexual exploitation. And get this: This girl was also—this profile was also served up Instagram video content featuring other young girls between the ages of 13 and 16. Meaning what? Meaning that Facebook's own algorithm knew she was underage, knew that there was sexual exploitation and sexually suggestive messages happening back and forth. The algorithm knew that and served up additional sexually exploitative content. The girl was also served an Instagram advertisement for a law firm representing trafficking survivors, the ultimate irony. Now, of course, if this girl had really existed, could she have brought suit against Facebook? Not a chance. The law currently prevents it. And yet Facebook's own algorithm—they own Instagram—Facebook's own algorithm recognizes her as underage, recognizes the child sexual abuse content going on, recognizes that she may be a victim of child sexual abuse, and therefore sends her referrals for attorneys who work in this space. What should that tell us? Their algorithms are absolutely capable of identifying potentially sexually abusive material, totally capable of identifying when there's potential grooming going on, and yet they say, Mr. Tanagho, as you said, they say all the time, Oh, we just don't have the resources to do it. In fact, what they want to do is monetize people like this. They benefit currently financially from sexual exploitation, and this is why it is so important, it is so important to allow victims, actual victims—thank goodness this girl doesn't exist, but there are literally millions like her, as you know from your own experience, Ms. Sines, millions like her who do, who are being exploited, sadly, as we sit here today in this committee room, who feel as if they have no recourse. And sadly, under our current law, they have very little recourse. It's time to give victims like this the right to get into court. Ms. DeLaune, can I just ask you, you have so much experience in this area. In your view, what is the role that the technology platforms, the online platforms, what role do they have in deterring and disrupting and reporting this kind of abuse? And why is it important to require them to do more than they currently are?

Michelle DeLauneSPEAKER_09

Thank you. It's it's interesting. I think as you were talking also about what we learned from the Australian eSafety Commissioner, it goes to also a provision within the STOP CSAM Act about transparency reports. We're spending a lot of time trying to identify where there's a decrease in reports, what happened. So much we have learned from what they are telling us from Australia is something that we would be able to take out the transparency. What are these companies doing that is allowing this to happen? Are they detecting? Are they reporting? Where are they getting their information? How long are they holding? What types of reports are they getting from from victims, from from the public? At this point, we don't know. It's actually remarkable how much we do know when you consider this is entirely voluntary, besides when there is a known violation of apparent child pornography, sex trafficking, or online enticement. At that point, it triggers a report. Other than that, this is all just based on relationships and meeting the right person and finding out what they're doing. It's not going to work any longer. We're seeing that. The voluntary structure of how the companies are making decisions without any sort of transparency so we understand what they're doing and what they're not doing, it won't last any longer. We're seeing the drops, and at this point, more companies—we're talking about the drop in reports—more companies can simply make different business choices, the reports will go away, the incidents are not going away. We're just being blinded to them.

Chairman Josh Hawley (R-MO)SPEAKER_06

And that's why it's so important that we strengthen these reporting requirements.

Michelle DeLauneSPEAKER_09

Absolutely, absolutely. The, you know, one of the examples that I have in the testimony was regarding 2 offenders who were ganging up on a young girl, forcing her to produce awful, horrific child sexual abuse content. We sent that report to law enforcement. We called out this weekend to find out what happened. You had 2 law enforcement agencies in 2 states serving multiple subpoenas exigent subpoenas, try to find that victim, can't find the victim and don't know what happened because enough information was not provided at the moment they made that report. We need more details. If a report has been triggered, we need more details so law enforcement can actually protect children.

Chairman Josh Hawley (R-MO)SPEAKER_06

Thank you so much. Senator Blackburn.

Senator Marsha Blackburn (R-TN)SPEAKER_03

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to each of you for taking the time to be here, for submitting your testimony, and for continuing to work on these issues to protect children in the virtual space and to rid the virtual space of CSAM. And Ms. DeLaune, as you know, my REPORT Act was signed into law by President Biden last year. And of course, that increases the time that you all can hold information from 90 days to a year, and it also requires the social media platforms to report to you when there are bad actors and when CSAM is present. And I was listening to you talk just a few minutes ago. We have heard that there are increases in reports to you all, but pick it up from there for me and build out with the increases in reports to the CyberTipline. Let's look at what has happened, how law enforcement is responding, how we're being able to get these cases prosecuted.

Michelle DeLauneSPEAKER_09

Thank you, and thank you for your leadership, Senator, on the REPORT Act. In the last year, we have seen 192% increase in online enticement reports. That is a result of reports coming in from the tech companies as well as members of the public who are making those reports to us. We do have concerns regarding the quality of those reports. There is the requirement that the company report it if they become aware of it, but the fact that many of these reports are coming from the public rather than the provider shows that they're not detecting that. In addition, the company still going back to the requirements of what should be included in a report, companies are still choosing based upon their own decision what they wish to include in the report and what they don't. More consistency across the companies would be good. We did issue in response—

Senator Marsha Blackburn (R-TN)SPEAKER_03

Hang on just right there. So then they are reporting, but their metric is a subjective metric. Is that what you're saying?

Michelle DeLauneSPEAKER_09

That is correct, Senator. Okay. That is correct. And we did issue guidelines based upon the REPORT Act last fall that does provide very clear guidance and helpful information on recognizing child sex trafficking and online enticement on their platforms.

Senator Marsha Blackburn (R-TN)SPEAKER_03

So should we look at going back into the REPORT Act and being specific in some of that guidance that you all issued? Should we put that into statute so that there is a uniform approach?

Michelle DeLauneSPEAKER_09

That is one idea. There's also within the STOP CSAM Act, there are provisions there regarding building out what information would be helpful in a CyberTipline report. If the report is being made, then there is a belief that a crime has occurred. At that point, provide the information that's necessary to identify the child and identify a possible offender.

Senator Marsha Blackburn (R-TN)SPEAKER_03

Okay. Well, what we want to do is make certain that with the changes that were made through the REPORT Act, that you all are able to get that information to law enforcement, law enforcement is able to apprehend bad actors, and we are able to get them off of these platforms and prosecuted. So, we would appreciate that. Mr. Tanagho, I appreciate the work that IJM has done in fighting human trafficking. And one of the things that we have discussed, some of us have discussed, is the need to have a national uniform, national human trafficking database. And as you know, Senator Klobuchar and I have introduced the legislation that would establish that so that we have a way to pull this information together and then we're able to actually see what is happening, what trends are happening, and get a full picture of what is taking place in the in the 50 states. So, I want you to talk for just a minute about why it is important to have that data from each of the states and collectively be able to review that.

John TanaghoSPEAKER_07

Well, thank you for that question, Senator Blackburn. I think it's, it's essential. And in fact, in all of IJM's programs, we always conduct a baseline study to measure the prevalence of the crimes that we are combating at the start of our program and then again at the end of our program. And nine out of nine times, we have been able to measure a reduction in the prevalence of violent crimes. And I think it's really important when I talked about the scale of harm, nearly half a million—nearly half a million children who are being sex trafficked in live streaming in the Philippines alone. The reason that we spent all the time and effort to do that research study is because we believe that at some point down the future, at the end of our program, that we will be able to reduce the prevalence of that crime. But the only way we know if anti-trafficking programs are working is if you collect the data, right? And at the end of the day, I think what all of us care about is that children are being protected. Whether it's from trafficking, whether it's from CSAM, whether it's from live-streamed child sexual abuse, at the end of the day, our work should lead to fewer victims of these terrible crimes. And the only way we know if that's happening is if we gather the data.

Senator Marsha Blackburn (R-TN)SPEAKER_03

And I appreciate that. And I think the livestreaming is such a heinous act, and being able to curtail that and to apprehend the those individuals is going to be an important part of what we do. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Josh Hawley (R-MO)SPEAKER_06

Thank you, Senator Blackburn. Thank you for your tremendous leadership on this issue. Let me now call on the ranking member, if he's ready, for any statement he might want to make and then for his questions.

Ranking Member Dick Durbin (D-IL)SPEAKER_00

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for your support on this measure, which goes back to the previous Congress. We switched places. It was Durbin-Hawley, now it's Hawley-Durbin. It's a bill we're working on together on a bipartisan basis, as we should. I'm sorry that I'm late. I had a press conference scheduled with the leader that I couldn't change. I just want to follow up with a question or two. The STOP CSAM Act is a comprehensive child protection bill, as we all know. We counted on survivors, law enforcement, prosecutors, and victims to help write it. A significant portion of the bill is dedicated to strengthening privacy protections for child victims. All CSAM victims have their dignity and privacy further ripped away from them when their abuse is captured in pictures or videos and put on display. That's why the STOP CSAM Act includes significant updates to federal law, such as creating a presumption in favor of keeping protected information under seal and providing the court with remedies against any attorney who does not comply with these privacy provisions. Mr. Schiller, can you explain why it's necessary to make these updates? In particular, I'd like your thoughts on why it's important to have an enforcement provision within this statute.

Gregory SchillerSPEAKER_05

Thank you, Senator. I appreciate the question. Um, I cannot begin to tell you how many times in my years of prosecuting cases that I have had to redact documents, uh, to do what I needed to do to protect a victim's identity For years, we didn't know how to handle it. We didn't know exactly what we were supposed to do. And this legislation gives us that direction. But more so, it makes sure that criminal defense attorneys, pro se defendants who might not care about their victims because, frankly, they're the ones who were violating them, want to continue to harm them. Not the defense attorneys, of course, but the defendants themselves. This law would make sure that they can't do that anymore, and there would be sanctions in place if they did.

Ranking Member Dick Durbin (D-IL)SPEAKER_00

Ms. Sines, your exploiter was recently prosecuted in federal court. I understand you participated in that process. What, if anything, could have been done to make it easier or better for you?

Taylor SinesSPEAKER_02

Thank you, Senator. In all transparency, it was the easiest thing I think I have ever done. My prosecutor to the detective who worked my case, made it effortless for me. They handled the brunt of any accusations, any terrible questions. They were able to shield me from having to sit and look through images and identify myself. Truly, I consider myself very lucky that I don't think anything could have been done better for my case, but I know that that's not how it is for every victim. I know that law enforcement falls short. I know prosecution can fall short. From— in my case, my school resource officer fell short. I think it's making sure that everyone is well-educated on CSAM and what sextortion and exploitation means and how prevalent it is in their own backyards.

Ranking Member Dick Durbin (D-IL)SPEAKER_00

That is so good to hear after all you've been through, that you had a day in court of that nature.

Taylor SinesSPEAKER_02

Thank you, Senator

Ranking Member Dick Durbin (D-IL)SPEAKER_00

Pizzuro, welcome back.

John PizzuroSPEAKER_04

Thank you.

Ranking Member Dick Durbin (D-IL)SPEAKER_00

Let me ask you about the enhanced privacy protections available to child victims continuing when they turn 18. Is that important?

John PizzuroSPEAKER_04

It's really important. And I think that's the the aspect, part of the reporting aspects just from law enforcement, as Mrs. DeLaune had indicated, we don't have the information when we're trying to do these investigations. So, I think that's the challenge and and the reports that we do get. And this is where STOP CSAM really helps law enforcement actually get quality leads in order for us to go out and investigate and find victims and protect them better.

Ranking Member Dick Durbin (D-IL)SPEAKER_00

I'm going to ask you a question that I'm sure others would like to know the answer to as well. Are there any good guys out there, any social media spots and others that are responding properly in timely fashion?

John PizzuroSPEAKER_04

It's— how do I word this? It's— I would say no. I would say some do it better than others. But what they're doing good isn't good at all.

Ranking Member Dick Durbin (D-IL)SPEAKER_00

Any of the panelists have anything to say on that?

Gregory SchillerSPEAKER_05

Thank you, Senator. I agree. I think some of them have been getting better, but I think that a lot of that has to do with the pressure that they've been receiving from law enforcement, from prosecutors, from the Department of Justice to provide more information. But that's not the way it's supposed to happen. There's supposed to be a uniform standard to make sure that they're all providing the same and necessary information. It would help NCMEC to be able to process their reports faster to get to law enforcement so that the prosecutors can issue subpoenas and search warrants and we can move faster. Every day that we have to wait on information, every day that we're not getting enough information is a day a child is being harmed, and we can't have that. We need robust information if we're going to do our jobs properly.

Ranking Member Dick Durbin (D-IL)SPEAKER_00

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Josh Hawley (R-MO)SPEAKER_06

Thank you. And now I see my friend Senator Blumenthal, who I've worked together, he and I, in this space very productively. It's great to have you here, Senator, and the floor is yours.

Senator Richard Blumenthal (D-CT)SPEAKER_08

Thank you very much, Senator Hawley. We have worked together, and my hope is that we'll continue to work together, especially on the issues that are before us today and most especially the Kids Online Safety Act, which was approved by the United States Senate in a vote of 91 to 3. 91 to 3 doesn't happen very often these days in the Senate. It was last session, and unfortunately the House never gave it a vote, which, in my view, is a tragedy because it helps protect kids against the toxic content, the algorithms, the black-box methodology that social media use. And of course, the tech companies, who would be held accountable under this law, say they are for it, and then they work behind the scenes against it, and they try to shift blame for the skyrocketing increase in online harms to others, avoiding the blame that they well deserve. But more important than the blame is reforms that they could well institute, providing tools and safeguards for parents and children and a duty of care so that they are required to mitigate harm if they know it's happening or have reason to know it's happening, and, of course, disclosure of the algorithms, the black-box drivers of that toxic content. Mr. Pizzuro, you say that we're not going to arrest our way— I think in your testimony, we cannot arrest our way out of this problem. Let me ask you, perhaps you and Ms. DeLaune, what you think about the duty of care as a means of providing some safeguards here?

John PizzuroSPEAKER_04

Well, I think from my standpoint is that there is no safeguards, and I think that's the problem, right? The AI algorithms push all this content to them, and it doesn't matter what the mechanism is. So there needs to be a duty of care because ultimately these children are on their platforms. So there is a burden on them to make sure that the children are safe.

SPEAKER_UNKNOWN

Thank you,

Michelle DeLauneSPEAKER_09

Senator. It's really incumbent upon the companies to know their customer. At this point, most of the sites, most things online, you just check a box, you're over 13, you're over 21, whatever it may be. They're working and looking at age assurance, knowing who the child is, what age they're at. Going back to the case that we just saw a moment ago, knowing who they're engaging with, whether or not they're overage, underage. There is a shared responsibility, in our view, for the platforms, for the app stores, for the device, and knowing who the child is, and building and designing safer experiences for them, recognizing their age. I will also talk briefly about the necessity—we can't prosecute our way out of the problem. The reports are coming in. Law enforcement rightly is investigating. Really, we need to be looking upstream about preventing these crimes from happening in the first place. One feature that we're seeing an increase, we actually saw a 1,300% increase in one year in the use of generative AI to create child sexual abuse imagery. There are blockers right now in trying to prevent that. The current legislation allows the National Center to provide specific elements to help in the prevention of these crimes only with electronic service providers. What the STOP CSAM Act also allows us to do is share this information with other entities who are furthering the protection of children, whether it be an NGO, whether it be a GenAI tech provider. Right now, we're hearing requests working with Meta, with OpenAI, with Google, who are looking to build classifiers to detect generative artificial CSAM, AI CSAM. But there's limited information in some cases of what we can share. So, another really important thing that we just keep going back to is we will continue responding, we need to be preventing, they need to know who their customers are, and we need to be able to share good data, helpful data, to help them build solutions to the problems.

Senator Richard Blumenthal (D-CT)SPEAKER_08

And I agree that, you know, they have the technology, they know the customers, the burden should be on them. That's the importance of the duty of care. It's a design feature. It's not a censorship mechanism. It doesn't block content. It gives the consumers choices so that they can block it if they wish, or their parents to take action to protect their children with tools that they deserve to have. And the duty of care imposes a measure of responsibility on the tech companies themselves to address the kind of problems that they are seeing and we are seeing children facing. Thank you all for your testimony today. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Josh Hawley (R-MO)SPEAKER_06

Thank you very much, Senator Blumenthal. Mr. Long, could I just come back to something you said just a moment ago in response to Senator Blumenthal? You mentioned generative AI. Just give us a sense of of the field. Is generative AI going to make the problem of CSAM online—is it going to make it better or worse? In other words, is it going to contribute to the proliferation of these images, or is it is it going to make them—is it going to reduce the overall number?

Michelle DeLauneSPEAKER_09

It will not reduce the overall number. I have spent hours looking at some of the reports that have been submitted to us by tech companies that include images of child sexual abuse that have been generated with this technology. There are examples of text prompts where somebody types in what they want the image to look like that ultimately produces child sexual abuse material. We have cases of teachers who are taking known images of abuse and putting faces of children they know. It's been happening for many decades, but now it's very easy and has kind of democratized the use of this tech. So we do anticipate— we are seeing in one year a 1,300% increase, which really just, you know, we're doubling down in terms of trying before this genie is completely out of the bottle. How do we get the information? How do we get the good content? Companies in to try to build these tools and these safety designs at the beginning. It's a little late, but it's still something that we're going to be working on. And we do need the statutory authority to be able to share more information so we can get these systems built the way they need to, recognizing the harm that they're going to cause.

Chairman Josh Hawley (R-MO)SPEAKER_06

And that last part you said is so key, I think. You need the statutory authority. This legislation would help accomplish that. But I think as we look at this new age of AI, we hear a lot of rosy predictions about how wonderful AI is going to be for everybody. I hope that that's true. But what we're seeing so far in this space is AI is driving, to as you just said, Mr. DeLaune, an absolute explosion of CSAM material, an absolute explosion of it, and is making life horrific for more and more teenagers, more and more folks like you, Ms. Sines, who now have images ripped off of—public images ripped off of the web, ripped off of their profiles, put through an AI generative process that's readily available, and turned into something else entirely, and have their lives ruined. And we've got to take steps now to give victims—because you're just as much a victim if AI does it as if someone's holding a live stream camera—we've got to give them tools to combat this. And we've got to give NCMEC and other enforcers the tools to do the same. Senator Klobuchar, would you like to ask some questions?

John TanaghoSPEAKER_07

I would.

Chairman Josh Hawley (R-MO)SPEAKER_06

All right, the floor is yours. Thanks for being here.

Senator Amy Klobuchar (D-MN)SPEAKER_01

Thank you all, and thank you very much, Ms. Sines, for your story and for being willing to come forward. Do you believe that we need to put in place mechanisms to require online platforms to immediately take down nonconsensual intimate images?

Taylor SinesSPEAKER_02

Thank you, Senator. I absolutely do agree. As I mentioned in my testimony earlier, what happens if we're if my photos were to be publicly posted again, um, do I think that big tech would have my back and immediately take it down? No, never. I don't— so we absolutely need this in place so companies, as soon as they see these images, they're immediately taken down. Um, that saves the victim a lot of shame. Imagine you are back in middle school or you're back in high school, and now everybody has a cell phone. You can get on the web at any time. You can screenshot, screen record, share it. Those images aren't just circulating by the predators online, they're circulating through these children's schools.

Senator Amy Klobuchar (D-MN)SPEAKER_01

Yes, exactly. And I thank my colleagues for their work on this important bill. I actually wanted to ask about an additional bill, Mr. Tanagho, and that is both Senator Cornyn and I have the SHIELD Act, and Senator Cruz and I have the Take It Down Act, which was actually referred to at the State of the Union, and the First Lady has done a press event supporting the bill. In your written testimony, you called for the codification of a notice-and-takedown regime in federal law. As you know, these bills create a mechanism through which platforms are required to remove sexual abuse materials from their sites, and the Take It Down Act has unanimously passed, SHIELD Act passed. Why is it so important that Congress pass into law a requirement that platforms permanently remove sexual abuse imagery from the internet?

John TanaghoSPEAKER_07

Well, thank you so much for that question. I think we've heard from a very brave survivor today about the harm that is, that is done to survivors when their abuse material continues to circulate online. And I think it shouldn't be the responsibility of survivors to have to scour the internet looking for images and videos of their abuse and then repeatedly requesting companies to take it down. I think once they have asked a company to take down their CSAM, the company should absolutely do it, and there should be a law that requires them to do it so that it's not voluntary. But after that, that company is on notice. They know that that image or that video is known CSAM, And they can use technology to prevent the recirculation and reuploading of that image ever again. And that's what should be required of them.

Senator Amy Klobuchar (D-MN)SPEAKER_01

Okay, thank you. Mr. Schiller, the U.S. Attorney's Office in Minnesota has prioritized combating child sexual exploitation online. In fact, just last month, after an investigation with federal law enforcement, the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension and the Winona County Sheriff's Office, a man was sentenced to 27 years in prison after targeting more than 60 young girls, primarily between ages 9 and 12, in an online extortion scheme. Based on your experience as a former AUSA, what are the most effective tools that prosecutors currently have to stop the sexual exploitation of kids online, and what are the biggest challenges?

Gregory SchillerSPEAKER_05

Well, thank you very much, Senator. This Congress and past Congresses have given us wonderful tools when it comes to laws punishing online offenders. We have minimum mandatories, we have online exploitation communities that we can prosecute, and we've got great criminal statutes to do that. But that's only one side of it. We need other tools. And to be honest with you, the STOP CSAM Act gives us some of those other tools. For example, I've had cases where I've had children who were abused by their parents or by other people who are guarding them. They have no guard at all, so we had to get them a guardian ad litem. That becomes a difficult process when the courts have no funding for it. The courts are already strapped as it is financially, so this bill gives them that funding and guarantees those children that protection. And one other thing that we heard earlier from Mr. Tanagho is having a fiduciary. If we have victims outside of our country or incapacitated victims, they need to be able to maintain that restitution when it is finally awarded to them. And this bill, again, does that for them.

Senator Amy Klobuchar (D-MN)SPEAKER_01

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Pizzuro. Last question here. And I did have some questions on reporting of you, Ms. DeLaune, but I think Senator Blackburn took care of those. So, Mr. Pizzuro, could you tell me why it's so important to open the courtroom doors and reform Section 230 for those who suffer harms like the two boys who you described in your testimony?

John PizzuroSPEAKER_04

Well, like, the reality is, is that, again, we've talked about this a while. There's not any penalties, right? So until there are penalties and people have their time in court for that victimization, how are we going to protect them? And ultimately, that's what companies understand. They understand as long as it's not going to cost them, it's a business decision. Ultimately, that is going— what's going to happen, and ultimately that's what needs to happen.

Senator Amy Klobuchar (D-MN)SPEAKER_01

Okay, thank you. And I thank the 2 leaders up here with me as well. Thank you. Thanks, all of you.

Chairman Josh Hawley (R-MO)SPEAKER_06

I think we've got Senator Britt is on the way, so let me just ask another question or two while we wait for her to arrive. Mr. Schiller, if I could just come back to you. My understanding is is that the Child Rescue Coalition plays a major role in developing new technology that can be used against online CSAM. Can you speak to that?

Gregory SchillerSPEAKER_05

I certainly can, Senator. Thank you. Yeah, for the better part of 10 years now, the Child Rescue Coalition generates software for law enforcement for free so that it can expedite their work in combating child exploitation. Between peer-to-peer networks, live streaming technology, and everything else that's out there where our children are at risk, the technology gives law enforcement the opportunity to proactively go after these individuals, incredibly streamlining their process and minimizing the work they have to do. The beautiful thing about the technology is it works hand in hand with every other law enforcement technology to combat child exploitation. So when law enforcement receives a CyberTipline from NCMEC, they will also run that information against information from the Child Rescue Coalition to see if offenders are in different places and make a robust and really wholesome investigation against the offender.

Chairman Josh Hawley (R-MO)SPEAKER_06

Very good. Thank you for your terrific work, and thank you for your center's work. Ms. Sines, can I just come back to you? I want to pick up something that you said in your opening statement about when your exploiter created all of those profiles in order to post all of that material. And you said that Facebook said to you initially that they would not take down so many of these different profiles. How long did it take before you were finally able to get this content, and these profiles, which were generated, as I understand it, with the sole purpose of embarrassing you, shaming you. How long did it take to get Facebook to finally take those down?

Taylor SinesSPEAKER_02

Thank you, Senator. At first, it took a little over a day until we were able to hone in on a personnel that we could directly contact at Facebook, and then any other time there were postings, we would contact that one specific personnel and they would be taken down within a few hours. But at first it was a day, maybe longer.

Chairman Josh Hawley (R-MO)SPEAKER_06

Well, I think one of the important things that this bill does additionally is it creates a reporting mechanism for victims, an independent board, because what we've seen all too often with the companies, and this was your experience, is that people will go to them, report it, and oftentimes the companies, they drag their feet, or they do nothing. They do nothing at all, and they say, Well, you know, too bad. This bill creates an independent board that is able to receive these complaints, review them, and then order that this kind of material is taken down within 48 hours, and also to subject companies that violate this order to fines, including some restitution for victims. So, your experience again is so instructive in this regard. Thank you for being willing to be here and to share it with us, and thank you for your courage. Senator Britt, we are ready for you if you are ready for us.

Senator Katie Britt (R-AL)SPEAKER_10

Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate it and appreciate you holding a hearing on this important topic. Look, there is nothing more important than protecting our kids. When you talk about looking at what's happening to the next generation, I think it is imperative that we step up and can do better, do more to make sure that we are safeguarding, putting up guardrails, calling things out where they are. And so I appreciate you all being here to discuss this important topic. I mean, the perils of the digital era are literally turning the American dream into a nightmare for so many families, not only in my state, but literally across the nation. I wanted to start with you, Mr. Pizzuro. Is that how you say it? Pizzuro, okay, there you go. Look, I had intended to be in front of you and ask some questions when you appeared before the full committee last month. I went back and looked at some of the written testimony you submitted to the committee, and one anecdote in your testimony really struck me. You recounted that you were taking a half-a-mile walk on a beautiful day on the beach, and during that relatively brief period of time, you counted 67 children and teens on their phones. And you also said that then you came across a lost child who couldn't find their parent. You concluded with a statement that statistically, at least 25% of those children will be victimized.

John PizzuroSPEAKER_04

Yeah.

Senator Katie Britt (R-AL)SPEAKER_10

In addition to reforming Section 230 and passing bills such as the STOP CSAM Act, I am of the view that one of the things that Congress needs to do is ensure that social media platforms verify the ages of their users rather than relying on kind of them to do that themselves. And we all know that typically what they say, you know, you can't be on there until you're 13, but they never verify that. So that's just meaningless. I co-led another bill during Congress, the Protecting Kids on Social Media Act, that addressed this issue. Given your background and experience, do you have any views regarding how Congress may best approach the age verification issue?

John PizzuroSPEAKER_04

Yes, device-based. Your phone knows how old you are, right? So if I'm 10 years old and I try to download Snap and I try to get on it, it knows that I'm not. So even Raven's been working on tech, but the solution is really device-based because we know that. And even parents today can't even understand like if parental controls, there's like 51— each one has a different one. What happens if we were able to create one where a parent can press a button to prevent their kids and that information from going on? And it's not even a privacy issue, it's because the phone knows how old they are. So we need

Senator Katie Britt (R-AL)SPEAKER_10

phone knows how old you are because when we as parents, if you were to go and get your child a phone, you're saying we have to give that information when the phone is purchased,

John PizzuroSPEAKER_04

correct? So right now,

Senator Katie Britt (R-AL)SPEAKER_10

yeah, so the information

John PizzuroSPEAKER_04

exists It's, it's right there. It

Senator Katie Britt (R-AL)SPEAKER_10

is already there. So then enforcing this, making these companies actually be able to not download an app, let's say, if you know that the child that owns the phone is under the age of that of which it should be available, shouldn't actually be that hard. And that kind of sort of seems that it would go into an app store.

John PizzuroSPEAKER_04

Yes. And the apps would actually talk to the actual, uh, store that in, whether it be, uh—

Senator Katie Britt (R-AL)SPEAKER_10

so what you're telling me is we have all of the information we already need to help protect our children. Correct. When it comes to age verification, we just have companies that are unwilling to do the hard thing that would be the best thing for our kids.

John PizzuroSPEAKER_04

Well,

Senator Katie Britt (R-AL)SPEAKER_10

it's actually relatively easy. Yeah,

John PizzuroSPEAKER_04

well, I guess the companies, they want, they want the kids on their platform so they can sell them whatever, you know. I think that's the challenge. So the technology exists that— and not only that, something along that thing is a solution. Would actually help parents because parents don't understand every new app that comes in. So you give parents the ability to protect their children at home. I mean, to me, what's better than that?

Senator Katie Britt (R-AL)SPEAKER_10

Yeah, absolutely. As a parent of a 14 and a 15-year-old, I say amen, right? I mean, this is the exact thing we've got to make sure we— what we know now versus what we knew when Um, you know, all of this began, and then the rise in social media and the nexus to the lives of our children. We have a duty and an obligation to, to do something about that. And what I hear you saying to me today is these companies already have this information, and so it is a choice that they are making with regards to allowing these things to be downloaded on these phones.

John PizzuroSPEAKER_04

Yeah, absolutely.

Senator Katie Britt (R-AL)SPEAKER_10

Okay, I think that's a choice that we should take away from them and make sure that we're safeguarding our kids. I know I am almost out of time. Is there anyone else that has anything to add to that particular topic? Well, see, it sounds like we found a winner here, right? We figured it out. Mr. Chairman, thank you. I won't go over my time, but really appreciate you bringing light to this so that we can hold people accountable and we can safeguard for our kids. It's, um, you know, their ability to learn and grow and explore, but to do that in as safe an environment as possible. So thank you.

Chairman Josh Hawley (R-MO)SPEAKER_06

Thank you, Senator Britt. Thank you for your leadership on this. Mr. Pizzuro, I think maybe you have summed it up well. These companies, this is a business model. They want kids online. They want to sell them stuff. They want to— they want— let's be honest, they want the child exploiters online also because they benefit from their business. This is really about profit at the end of the day. And until it is not profitable for these companies to host this abusive material online, they're going to keep doing it. Until it is not profitable for them to evade the reporting requirements, they're going to keep evading them. They're not going to be good actors until we force them to do it. And that's why the legislation we've been talking about today and the other issues that we've been considering—age verification, etc.—is so vital, because we do need to protect our kids. We do need to put power back into the hands of parents and victims. And I'll just end with this: to me, this is the age-old American story. Who's going to have the power? Is it going to be these megacorporations who are not accountable to anybody, or is it going to be the people? Is it going to be the victims? Is it going to be the parents? Who's going to have the power here? This technology can work beautifully if victims and parents actually have power. Right now they don't; we need to give it to them. I want to thank again the ranking member for his tremendous work on this. I said, Senator, when you were out of the room, I really said a lot of nice things about you, Senator Durbin, so maybe we'll leave it there.

Ranking Member Dick Durbin (D-IL)SPEAKER_00

I'll Check the transcript.

Chairman Josh Hawley (R-MO)SPEAKER_06

Thank you all for being here. Thank you for the witnesses for being here today, for your testimony, for your work. Thank you for the— to the many advocates who are here in the room. And with that, this hearing is adjourned.