"In Their Corner: Creating More Opportunities for American Boxers"

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

This Subcommittee on Workforce Protections will come to order. I note that a quorum is present. Without objection, the chair is authorized to call a recess at any time. And I appreciate everybody's willingness to hang with us here because we were conducting votes on the floor. But we have a very exciting hearing today, and the topic of today's hearing is to examine the current state of the boxing industry and show how H.R. 4624, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act, can help usher in a new golden age for the sport. For most of the 20th century, boxing stood at the heart of American sports and culture. It gave us legends like Jack Johnson, Sugar Ray Robinson, Jack Dempsey, and Muhammad Ali. And I should also note, from the 7th Congressional District in Pennsylvania, Larry Holmes. We recognize exceptional boxers like world champion Christy Martin, who was elected to the International Boxing Hall of Fame in the first year that women were on the ballot. We also honor more recent champions like the great English boxer Ricky The Hitman Hatton, whose untimely passing reminds us of the lasting bond between fighters and the fans across the world. These boxers were champions in the ring and icons outside of it. Boxing has long been a symbol of grit, determination, and the will to overcome impossible odds, qualities that are at the heart of the American spirit. But today, we must face a hard truth: boxing is failing to meet the high standards of American sports. What was once a respected and unified sport became fragmented, plagued by inconsistent standards, weak enforcement, and a troubling lack of accountability. Too often, fighters are pushed into dangerous matches without proper medical oversight. The result is a system that too frequently exploits the athletes instead of protecting them. And that's why, again, it's a very appropriate topic for our Subcommittee on Workforce Protections. All of that must change. Professional boxing needs clear, consistent standards that safeguards fighters' health and restore integrity to the profession. As we learn more about the long-term dangers of CTE and performance-enhancing substances, we should honor fighters' courage with a system that protects their health and safeguards the sport. That's the purpose of H.R. 4624, the Muhammad Ali Boxing Revival Act. Building on the foundation of the Professional Boxing Safety Act of 1996, this bipartisan legislation will bring real change to the sport by putting fighters first. This bill establishes unified boxing organizations, or UBOs, to set uniform safety and fairness standards. Under these organizations, boxers would receive regular medical exams and routine MRI screenings, with additional precautions for boxers over 40. Medical personnel will be present at every match. A strict, transparent anti-doping policy will also be enforced. This bill would set new industry-wide standards for medical insurance coverage and set a floor for per-round pay for boxers. Whether a boxer competes inside or outside a UBO, fair pay and medical protection will no longer be optional. They will be the standard. This is about rebuilding trust, protecting athletes, and reigniting the passion that once made boxing a cornerstone of American life. More importantly, it is about ensuring the sport doesn't sacrifice the health and dignity of its athletes. Boxing can be great again. It can inspire, uplift, and unify. H.R. 4624 can help revive a proud tradition while ensuring every fighter, from the first bell to the final round, is treated with dignity and respect. This is great legislation, and I want to commend those who are joining us here today as champions of this legislation in Congress. You and the work that you're doing embodies America's fighting spirit. And this administration, President Trump, and this Congress, who are all fighting to make America great again, want to join you in starting with that work and improving our boxing system right here in the United States. We also would like to enter into the record six letters in support of H.R. 4624 for the following organizations and individuals: the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, boxing champion Mike Tyson, the Association of Boxing Commissions, Tom Brown, president of TGB Promotions, PPG Paints Arena, the home of the Pittsburgh Penguins, and also Chartway Arena in Virginia. Again, I want to thank everybody for being here, not only my colleagues who are going to give brief testimony, but also our panelists. And with that, I yield back to the ranking member for an opening statement.

Ranking Member Ilhan Omar (D-MN)SPEAKER_00

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our witnesses for your testimony today. When Republicans first noticed us of today's hearing, I was immediately excited. I have long been a fan of professional boxing and mixed martial arts, and I was hopeful that we could have a bipartisan discussion about revitalizing a sport that I love. I came to this issue not as a legislator, but as someone who admires the courage and the craft of fighters who put their bodies on the line in the pursuit of greatness. At the turn of the century, Congress passed two landmark pieces of legislation to protect and support American boxers. In 1996, Congress passed the Professional Boxing Safety Act, or PBSA, which outlined the safe— the health and safety provisions and mandated state athletic commissions to oversee all professional boxing events. In 2000, Congress strengthened PBSA with the Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform Act. The Ali Act was designed to clean up the business side of boxing after decades of corruption that harmed boxers' livelihoods and integrity of the sport. It required better finance— financial disclosures, increased transparency of ranking and title decisions, and limited conflict of interest so that a single company or individual could not do could not both control a boxer's contract and access to titles. This was meant to stop promoters from demanding that boxers sign away their entire career just to have a chance at a title. In practice, the Ali Act's provisions helped give boxers more information and leverage to negotiate for a fair share of the money that their fights generated and free themselves from any coercive and restrictive contract terms. We should build on these successes and take time to explore other critical issues, such as the long-term cost of brain injury and the need for athletes in other combat sports like MMA to enjoy these protections. My hope is that we can use this hearing to discuss these issues thoughtfully and productively. However, my fear is that we are likely to focus on just one bill, H.R. 4624, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act, and consider moving it quickly. But I urge my colleagues to take a moment to pause and hold two things in our minds at once. First, there are some genuinely promising provisions in the Revival Act. For example, a national $150 per-round minimum payment would lessen financial strain on boxers who are still finding their footing in the sport. The bill would also set a national $25,000 floor for insurance coverage that the PBSA currently requires for every fight. Unfortunately, there are sections of the Revival Act that raise serious questions about who will actually control the future of boxing. It would remove guardrails that prevent influencer influential promoters from controlling the industry and forcing boxers into contracts that they do not benefit from. This legislation could also allow major corporations to completely take over the sport, leaving boxers without the leverage or the ability to advocate for themselves and their physical and financial health. These provisions prioritize Goliath to the detriment of David. Boxers who put their bodies on the line deserve to fight in an industry that pays them well, values their health and safety, and does not make them vulnerable to economic exploitation. While I do not entirely While not entirely harmful, this bill as crafted gives more power to promoters and big corporations than to boxers. This is why many professional boxers are speaking out against it, including Evander Holyfield, Oscar De La Hoya, Claressa Shields, Jake Paul, and Nico Ali Walsh. I'm not here to reflectively support or oppose H.R. 4624. I'm here to ask important questions to everyone involved: the promoters, the regulators, and especially the corporations that stand to gain the most, because we have to make sure that any revival of boxing does not come at the expense of the very athletes we say we are here to protect. I want this hearing to be the start of a longer, serious bipartisan conversation about how we support our boxers and bring investment into a sport without sacrificing the necessary antimonopoly firewalls that prevent American boxers from being exploited by powerful corporation corporate actors and foreign investors. I look forward to our discussion today, and I yield.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

Thank you to the ranking member, and it is a pleasure to be joined by a bipartisan duo of our colleagues, and we look forward to sharing the bipartisan spirit that they are bringing to us as we actually move forward with this legislation. And pursuant to Committee Rule 8(c), all members can insert written testimony and statements into the record, may do so by submitting them to the committee electronically in Microsoft Word by 5:00 p.m. 14 days after this hearing. Without objections, the hearing record will remain open for 14 days to allow such statements and other extraneous materials noted during the hearing to be submitted to the official record. I note that some of our colleagues who are not permanent members of the subcommittee may be waiving on for the purposes of today's hearing. And with that, I will introduce our two panelists. First, we have Congressman Brian Jack, who represents Georgia's 3rd Congressional District. Our second witness is Congressman Steven Horsford, who represents Nevada's 4th Congressional District. We appreciate both of you being here today, and you're fully aware of the procedures and testimony and the lighting system and timing, so I don't need to go into that. And with that, we'll recognize Representative Jack.

The Honorable Brian Jack (R-GA)SPEAKER_07

Chairman Mackenzie, Ranking Member Omar, Chairman Walberg, Ranking Member Scott, Chairman Comer, and Representatives Messmer, Grothman, Miller, Fine, Stevens, Allen, Casar, and Takano, thank you for welcoming my testimony today. I'm honored to submit H.R. 4624, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act, for your consideration. I authored and introduced this legislation, which is bipartisan, with Representative Sharice Davids, a talented athlete and a chief deputy whip within the House Democratic Caucus. Professional boxing in America has an incredibly rich and storied history. It's a sport that demands courage, perseverance, and determination from its champions, and its heroes have inspired greatness, ignited dreams, and forged generations of memories and tradition. 39 years before Jackie Robinson bravely broke barriers in Major League Baseball, Jack Johnson, the Galveston Giant, reigned as the first Black heavyweight champion of the world from 1908 to 1915. Decades before the New York Knicks were formed, thousands of spectators crammed into Madison Square Garden to see Jack Dempsey fight. Many of you may recall storied bouts during boxing's golden era, like Leon Spinks versus Muhammad Ali in 1978, Marvin Hagler versus Thomas Hearns in 1985, and Mike Tyson's championship fights in the 1990s. Unfortunately, American boxing has since faced a steady decline. 37 years have passed since an American won a heavyweight gold medal at the Olympics, and the majority of boxing's premier fights are now overseas, many, many time zones away. In recent years, HBO World Championship Boxing and Showtime Championship Boxing, long home to the greatest fights, ceased operations. Just a few months ago, ESPN's contract with a leading boxing promotion ended without renewal. Today, we submit legislation before you that will fix boxing's downturn and revive this great American sport. For over a century, individual states enacted legislation to regulate professional boxing, but the patchwork of regulations without uniform minimum standards led to widespread exploitation and rampant corruption. Since the 1950s, Congress has considered legislation to address these problems, and after multiple attempts in the 1990s, Congress finally acted, passing the Professional Boxing Safety Act of 1996 and the Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform Act in 2000. As a result, boxing is the only professional sport regulated by Congress. The Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act amends the Professional Boxing Safety Act of 1996 and preserves and protects the original Ali Act in its entirety. First, our legislation clarifies ambiguities in current law that have stifled innovation and investment into the sport. This bill allows for the creation of alternative systems called unified boxing organizations, otherwise known as UBOs, that will provide professional boxers with more protections, better pay, and greater protections. The UBO system will not replace the current structure involving sanctioning organizations. Instead, UBOs will be a separate, parallel system to the sanctioning organizations that will provide boxers with the freedom to choose which of the two systems works best for them. Additionally, this bill will return premier boxing events to our country, spurring economic growth and success across host communities. For this reason, the operators of many of America's greatest venues endorse this bipartisan legislation, including State Farm Arena in Atlanta, Georgia, Madison Square Garden in New York City, New York, Target Center and U.S. Bank Stadium in Minneapolis, Minnesota, Little Caesars Arena in Detroit, Michigan, Crypto.com Arena in Los Angeles, California, Moody Center in Austin, Texas, and Chartway Arena in Norfolk, Virginia. And just yesterday, this legislation received a letter of support from the 1.3 million members of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, one of America's largest unions. To improve the safety and well-being of boxers, this legislation establishes a minimum payment per round of $150 for professional boxers, aligning a patchwork of existing state laws to a uniform standard that will protect boxers from exploitation, especially in the early stages of their career. Additionally, this act strengthens existing health and safety protections for boxers to extend their careers and earning potential. Finally, to safeguard the integrity of the sport, this legislation implements strict anti-betting policies and restricts UBOs from charging boxers fees for placement in rankings or participation in championship matches. Sadly, earlier this week, super middleweight champion of the world Terence Bud Crawford was stripped of his championship belt for allegedly failing to pay fees to the sanctioning organization. Our legislation prohibits this practice for boxers who elect to join a UBO. In closing, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act provides us with a chance to make history. Once enacted, this legislation will be celebrated for decades to come. So let's join together in a spirit of bipartisanship and revive one of America's greatest sports in the name of one of America's greatest athletes, Muhammad Ali. I yield back.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

Thank you. Our second witness is Congressman Steven Horsford, and we will now turn to you.

The Honorable Steven Horsford (D-NV)SPEAKER_01

Thank you to the Workforce Protections Subcommittee Chair, Mr. Mackenzie, and to the ranking member, Ms. Omar, and to the full committee chair, Mr. Walberg, and the ranking member, Mr. Scott, as well as all the other members for allowing me to testify along with my colleague before the subcommittee today in support of creating more opportunities for American boxers. And I will keep my remarks brief, but I am here in support. Why am I here today? That answer is simple. Las Vegas is the undisputed fight capital of the world, and our community knows better than most what boxing means. Many of the sport's most iconic bouts took place under the neon glow of the Nevada desert. I remember the legendary Hagler-Hearns fight at Caesars Palace in 1985, the fight that electrified the nation and showcased boxing at its very best. This sport is woven into the fabric and culture of the Silver State. Its intertwined history dates back to March 17th, 1897, when Nevada hosted the very first legalized boxing match in the United States. That heritage continues to grow stronger with every event. In fact, as of 2023, researchers at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas estimated that 1 in 4 workers in Las Vegas and nearly 30% of the city's GDP is tied to recreation and entertainment services, including sports. Out-of-town visitors attending sporting events generated nearly $2 billion in direct economic output in fiscal year 2022 for our community. UNLV forecasts more than 12% growth in performing arts and spectator sports industries by 2030. That's 3,000 new and permanent jobs. So, in other words, when sports thrive, Nevada's economy thrives, and thousands of workers feel the impact. But it has now been 25 years since Congress enacted the original Ali Act to confront corruption, exploitation, and dangerous gaps in boxing. That landmark law made a meaningful difference, but the world of professional boxing has changed dramatically since its passage. Today, in this room, we have an obligation to evaluate where the system is working and where it is clearly falling short for fighters. And that is why H.R. 4624, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act, is so important. This bill allows a new, modernized business model to exist alongside the current sanctioning body system, a system that many across the sport agree is not adequately serving boxers or fans. H.R. 4624 creates room for innovation, competition, and expanded opportunities. It establishes a new pathway that can increase stability, elevate safety standards, and ultimately give fighters more control over their career. These reforms move the sport in the right direction. But at the same time, I want to be candid: the bill is not perfect, and there are areas that deserve a closer look. These concerns should be part of a bipartisan dialogue as the legislation moves forward. I urge all of you, together with Representative Jack and myself and the bill's other cosponsors, to listen closely today to the expert panel of witnesses and to identify what works and pinpoint areas that need refinement. By doing so, we can craft a final product that strengthens protections for boxers while fostering a healthier, more competitive boxing landscape. Congressional action transformed professional boxing a generation ago. Today, we have the opportunity and the responsibility to act again. If we do so thoughtfully, collaboratively, and with a commitment to the athletes at the center of this sport, we can help usher in a revival worthy of Muhammad Ali's name and legacy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

Thank you to Congressman Jack and Horsford for coming to testify before the Subcommittee on Workforce Protections today as we discuss H.R. 4624, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act. We share your interest in fostering greater investment and innovation in American boxing. Ultimately, we know that will lead to greater competition, more people involved, and increasing the abilities of American boxers. So this legislation and this hearing is just the start of our efforts to make American boxing great again, and we appreciate you being here today. With that, we will now seat the second panel, and we will pause for a minute as the panel gets situated. I'll ask those witnesses to come forward at this time. All right, well, now that the second panel of witnesses has been seated, I want to welcome all of you. Our first witness is Mr. Lawrence Epstein, Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer of the Ultimate Fighting Championship from Las Vegas, Nevada. Our second witness is Ms. Lonnie Ali, widow of Muhammad Ali and co-founder of the Ali— Muhammad Ali Center in Louisville— or from Louisville, Kentucky. Our third witness is Mr. Patrick English, the principal partner and owner of Dines and English, LLC, from Clifton, New Jersey. Our final witness is Mr. Andy Foster, the Executive Officer of the California State Athletic Commission from Sacramento, California. Again, welcome to all of you. We want to thank you for being here, and we look forward to your testimony. I should note that pursuant to committee rules, I will ask each of you to limit your oral testimony to a three-minute summary of written testimony which you have provided. As committee members may have questions for each of you, the clock will count down from three minutes. Pursuant to Committee Rule 8(d), the committee practice, however, is not to cut off any individual in their testimony until you reach the five-minute mark. I would also like to remind the witnesses to be aware of their responsibility to provide accurate information to the subcommittee. And with that, I will recognize our first witness today. Mr. Epstein, you are recognized for your testimony.

Mr. Lawrence EpsteinSPEAKER_06

Thank you very much, Chairman Mackenzie, Ranking Member Omar, and distinguished members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss H.R. 4624, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act. My name is Lawrence Epstein, and I'm the Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer of the UFC, the world's premier mixed martial arts organization. I've worked in combat sports for nearly three decades, first as a private practice lawyer representing clients across combat sports, and now as an executive with the UFC, where we have spent many years and invested billions of dollars building a global sport that has benefited thousands of athletes, many local communities, and hundreds of millions of fans. I deliver these remarks today as a proud boxing fan. My father first introduced me to the sport in its golden era of the 1970s and 1980s, when I watched American boxing legends like Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, Sugar Ray Leonard, and Marvelous Marvin Hagler captivate millions of fans with their otherworldly courage, determination, and athleticism. And I'm honored to sit here today alongside Lonnie Ali, co-founder of the Muhammad Ali Center and guardian of Muhammad's legacy, to discuss our support of this legislation. It is undeniable that professional boxing has suffered a steady decline in popularity in the United States. The sport's evolution and growth have been stifled, reducing opportunities for boxers and undermining the fan experience. The Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act can reverse this decline by creating a new space for an innovative model that will enhance and grow the industry and create more choices and opportunities for boxing. This bill establishes a framework for alternative systems called Unified Boxing Organizations, or UBOs, which would provide professional boxers with more career opportunities, better pay, and greater health and safety protections. UBOs would not replace— I want to repeat this— UBOs would not replace sanctioning organizations. Instead, UBOs would exist as a separate, parallel system. Boxers would have the freedom to choose between the two systems: the sanctioning organization model that currently exists or the UBO model. Whatever one is best for them, they will be able to choose. UBO boxers would benefit from additional health and safety protections, including enhanced comprehensive medical exams, more licensed physicians and ambulance units present at each event, and perhaps most importantly, health coverage for injuries sustained during training, which corrects a massive deficiency in the current system. UBOs would also offer independently administered antidoping programs with no-notice testing, both in and out of competition, to ensure that no boxer has an unfair and dangerous advantage over his or her opponent. UBOs would also maintain strict antibetting policies to safeguard the integrity of competition. Beyond UBOs, this bill would also provide benefits to boxers fighting in the sanctioning organization system. The bill establishes a national minimum payment of $150 per round for all professional boxers. The Association of Boxing Commissions believes this change will help boxers, since six states have minimums less than $150 per round, while most states have absolutely no minimum at all. And lastly, through this legislation, all professional boxers would have access to better health insurance, including a first-time national minimum of $25,000 of coverage for injuries sustained during a bout, higher than the current minimum in 43 states. It is also very important to note that my company, UFC, already has extensive experience in operating a best-in-class combat sports organization. For more than two decades, UFC has worked to become the gold standard for athlete health and safety in combat sports. We're proud of our track record, and we would certainly bring that expertise to bear in the boxing industry. As boxing is the only professional sport regulated by Congress, we believe congressional action in the form of bipartisan H.R. 4624 is needed to clarify the ambiguity in current law that has stifled investment and led to the problems we have that have diminished the sport for athletes and fans alike. This bill is a thoughtful solution that preserves the original Ali Act while providing boxers with access to more choices and opportunities, greater health and safety protections, and better pay. I want to thank the subcommittee for giving me the opportunity to testify here today, and I'd be happy to take any questions you may have.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

Thank you. And now I recognize Mrs. Ali for your testimony. If you can just tap the microphone please there, ma'am.

SPEAKER_UNKNOWN

There we go.

Mrs. Lonnie AliSPEAKER_12

Sorry.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

Fantastic. Thank you.

Mrs. Lonnie AliSPEAKER_12

Thank you, Chairman Mackenzie, Ranking Member Omar, and distinguished members of the Workforce Protections Subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss H.R. 4624, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act. My name is Lonnie Ali, and I am honored to speak to you as the wife and partner of the greatest boxer of all time, the self-proclaimed, globally recognized, and original GOAT, Muhammad Ali. I met Muhammad in 1963 when I was 6 years old and living in Louisville, Kentucky. Back then, the young Cassius Clay played a role in my life as a hometown hero and a growing global icon whose influence extended far beyond the ring throughout his career. After his retirement from boxing, we married, and I stood beside him for more than three decades as his closest companion, advocate, and eventually his caregiver. Muhammad went on to become an Olympic champion and three-time heavyweight champion of the world, earning numerous accolades, including the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2005 from President George W. Bush. Boxing gave Muhammad a platform to speak truth to power, to fight for civil rights, and to inspire millions around the world. He believed that boxing gave him the public platform to serve others, to be the voice for the voiceless. Muhammad often said, Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth. Needless to say, he lived his life practicing what he preached. He appreciated and utilized the immense platform boxing gave him to serve others and speak out about issues that moved him. Today, as co-founder of the Muhammad Ali Center in Louisville, I carry forward Muhammad's legacy of promoting respect, hope, and understanding throughout the world. The center serves as both a museum and a cultural institution celebrating his global legacy, and as an educational institution that inspires young people to find their own greatness. This brings me to why I strongly support H.R. 4624. Congress has long recognized that boxing needs help. 25 years ago, Congress honored Muhammad by enacting the Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform Act to address corruption and other problems in boxing. These issues were not new to Muhammad, to Congress, or to the country. Indeed, in the 1960s, it was well known that the mob controlled much of boxing. In the late 1990s and the early 2000, Muhammad and I were honored to work with the late and honorable Senator John McCain of Arizona to strengthen reforms throughout the Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform Act. 25 years later, boxing has suffered a steady decline in both popularity and integrity. Young athletes who might have once seen boxing as a pathway to success now face a system plagued by structural limitations, inadequate safety protections, and limited opportunities for fair compensation. One needs only to understand that HBO, Showtime, and ESPN have dropped boxing programming to know that boxing is in trouble. I was asked about this bill and felt a personal obligation to assess whether it would be good for boxing and for boxers. I certainly cannot speak for Muhammad. As you know, he had a way with words. The perspective I bring is whether this bill reinforces Muhammad's life's work, and it does. In addition to injecting some much-needed competition into the current system, this bill has significant health, safety, and integrity provisions that will no doubt be good for the sport. These three elements are particularly meaningful to me: minimum compensation, mandatory MRI testing, which will require MRI and MRA tests every 3 years, and performance and recovery centers. Muhammad's perspective on boxing transcended its demanding physical aspects. He was well known for his focus on the mental and emotional strength, courage, and self-belief gained through the sport, viewing boxing as a platform for expressing convictions and inspiring others. He believed in the importance of mental fortitude and willpower, professing that the will must be stronger than the skill. If Muhammad were here today, I know he would want to ensure that boxing remains strong and viable for generations to come, providing opportunities for other athletes to pursue their goals and dreams just like he did. This legislation has the potential to create countless opportunities for young athletes while establishing the safety standards and ethical practices that should have been in place long ago. It can help restore boxing's position as a respected American sport while ensuring that fighters who make it great are treated with dignity and the protection they deserve. Given its enhanced protections for boxers, I believe Muhammad would be proud to have his name associated with this legislation. Thank you very much for your time and consideration. I look forward to working with you to pass this important legislation and am happy to answer any questions you may have at this time.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

Thank you. And next, we'll recognize Mr. English for his testimony Lonnie .

Mr. Patrick EnglishSPEAKER_09

Thank you very much. And,

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

uh, microphone as well, please.

Mr. Patrick EnglishSPEAKER_09

Thank you. To, uh,

SPEAKER_UNKNOWN

the

Ranking Member Ilhan Omar (D-MN)SPEAKER_00

button.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

The button. Is it on? Button. There you go. Thanks, sir.

Mr. Patrick EnglishSPEAKER_09

Thank you. Why am I here today is a question. I've been involved in all of the boxing reform movements since the original Boxing Health and Safety Act. Very involved, to the extent of working with the staff of John McCain in both acts to help draft it draft them. Now, I'm going to be the minority here. I am glad that Congress is taking a new look, because there are things that should be corrected and modified, but this act is not the way to go. What the real purpose of this act is, in addition to the things that Lonnie Ali said, when they're all good and I'm all in favor of that, I have them down on my little pad here, is to give a monopoly power, or attempt to give a monopoly power, to a particular UBO, which is Zuffa. Most boxers, who through their organizations and individually, are opposed to this act. Nobody, to my knowledge, has gathered them together to speak as they have before the ABC, before the California Athletic Commission, and many other places. When it became known that I was going to testify today, I was deluged with folks that said, make sure they ask this, make sure they ask that. Well, it's not my role, nor do I have the time to do that. But let me tell you really quickly how the other acts that I've mentioned were generated. There was no one who was a lobbyist who was involved in those acts. There were a group, including John McCain, of people who cared and wanted to help a sport that needed help. So, they worked collectively together in a long series of hearing. Sadly, it took years, but it got better. The Muhammad Ali Act, as an pardon me, as an example, broke to some extent, not to the extent I would like, a grip of ratings organizations in a way that that was very bad. Corrupt is the word that I would choose to use. This bill, unfortunately, takes away some of the guidelines that were so important, particularly in the Muhammad Ali Act. For instance, I have provided written testimony, but just certain things: The firewall provision will not apply to the UBO. That's not helpful to anyone except somebody who wants to control. The next thing, of many, is that it does not require that positive drug tests be reported as they are now. Right now, they are reported to the local commission, they're reported to the ABC, but and, of course, through the ABC, to the the organization that holds the sorry, long long day that that reports results. It's called BoxRec, and it has a contract with the ABC. This bill says, or it goes to those or the UBO. That's wrong. There has been lots of suspect that results have been held, not reported, or manipulated. That that can't be. It is a formula for a problem. I have written testimony. I know you've read it. I'm running out of time here, and but I really would like to answer any questions that you have, recognizing that I'm really in the minority of this panel.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

All right, well thank you. We appreciate everybody being here. And lastly, we will recognize Mr. Foster for your testimony.

Mr. Andy FosterSPEAKER_04

Good afternoon, Chairman Mackenzie, Ranking Member Omar, and distinguished members of the committee. My name is Andy Foster, and I serve as executive officer of the California State Athletic Commission and multiple leadership positions within the Association of Boxing Commissions. I was also a professional fighter. Thank you for holding this important hearing for consideration of the Ameri of the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act. Members of Congress, in 44 states right now, a professional boxer can fight 4, 6, or sometimes 8 rounds, get knocked unconscious, concussed, need stitches, suffered a broken orbital or worse, and the check they're handed at the end of the night is literally $1. I've stood ringside and watched it happen. In some cases, fighters actually pay the promoter a fee just to be on the card. So they leave the venue worse off, both financially and physically, than when they arrived. Members Members of Congress, that's not a sport. That's sanctioned exploitation. In 2016, California said no more. The commission banned $1 contracts and set a minimum purse of $100 per scheduled round. In 2023, Governor Gavin Newsom signed legislation that the commission sponsored that doubled purses to a minimum of $200 per round, the highest in the country. A 4-round fighter in California now walks away with at least $800. It's still modest money, but for the thousands of club-level fighters who keep this sport alive, it's enough money to get you home. H.R. 4624 would finally bring the rest of America to a reasonable floor: $150 per round, meaning $600 for a 4-rounder. That single provision would be the biggest pay raise the working-class boxer has ever seen. But money is only part of the picture. Boxing injuries can be brutal and expensive. Too many promoters today carry $5,000 or $10,000 insurance policies. When a fighter needs an overnight hospital stay, an MRI, emergency surgery, those bills go unpaid and often get sent to the fighter himself. This bill fixes that by requiring every professional card in the country to carry at least $25,000 in no-deductible medical coverage paid for by the promoter and not the athlete. That's real protection. That's what boxing needs. That will help boxing. The legislation also establishes the first federal medical baseline: an annual physical, dilated eye exam, and blood testing for hepatitis B, C, and HIV. California and a handful of other states already greatly exceed these standards, and the bill wisely lets us continue to do so. But no boxer in any state will again be cleared with just a quick blood pressure check and a handshake. The California State Athletic Commission voted unanimously to support this bill, and we particularly urge you to add one amendment that we've requested: an automatic inflation adjustment so that these purse and insurance minimums, these protections, don't erode over time. We also strongly back the unified boxing organization framework in the bill. It gives fighters genuine choice in how they want to pursue titles without the crushing sanctioning fees that drain purses today. It gives the fighters a choice. Mr. Chairman, professional boxers put their health and their future on the line every single time they step through the ropes. H.R. 4624 says that their safety, their basic dignity, and their ability to pay a medical bill are not negotiable. California regulates more combat sports events than any other state in the country by a wide margin. And we are proud to stand with Congressman Jack and Congresswoman Davids, who is also a fighter, and the other members of Congress to support this bipartisan bill. Please pass this bill, add the inflation adjustment, and give American boxers the protection that they've earned in blood and sweat. Thank you, and I'm happy to answer your questions.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

Thank you. Under Committee Rule 9, we will now ask questions of the witnesses. And under the 5-minute rule, I would recognize myself first, but I'm going to yield to our full committee chairman, Mr. Walberg from Michigan.

Full Committee Chairman Tim Walberg (R-MI)SPEAKER_11

I thank the gentleman for your kindness in doing that, and I appreciate the panel for being here, very much so. And I guess I'd add a few more names to the Little Caesars Arena in Detroit. Got to remember the fist, Joe Louis and the Joe Louis Arena, Kronk Gym, which is making a comeback.

SPEAKER_UNKNOWN

And

Full Committee Chairman Tim Walberg (R-MI)SPEAKER_11

Certainly, I'm so proud that the longtime home of Muhammad and Lonnie Ali was in my district. And so good to have you here. Mr. Epstein, being a wrestler, I guess a pugilist to some degree myself, and having five shoulder surgeries as a result of that—chicken wings, armbars, Granby rolls, and all of the rest—I wouldn't not do it over again. But that was amateur. I guess I'd like to hear more about the medical coverage of the Ultimate Fighting Championship that goes on, specifically goes on in a person's life, as well as especially the training aspect. What's covered there?

Mr. Lawrence EpsteinSPEAKER_06

Congressman, thanks for that question. Most injuries actually take place with mixed martial arts athletes, combat sports athletes in training, because every fight they participate in, many, many hours are used to train for that particular bout. And that's when many injuries occur. And so, over a decade ago at the UFC, we instituted what we call an accident insurance policy for all of the athletes at the UFC that are currently under contract with us. That accident insurance policy provides coverage for any—underline any—acute injury sustained by the athlete in training or in any other situation, frankly, leading up to the event. You heard a little bit about what we'd like to do with this bill, which would be to increase the amount of coverage that would be for injuries sustained in a bout. But the coverage that we provide obviously dovetails with that. It covers all injuries, any acute injury that's sustained during training, and frankly, any injury that the athlete sustains while they're under contract. And that's a very significant thing, because in many situations athletes don't have coverage, and they will actually go into a bout injured in order to avail themselves to the, at this point, fairly limited accident insurance policy they'll have relating to a bout injury. So we're very proud of that. We've done it for, as I said, over a decade now, and it's something that we think is central to the UBO model and a requirement that all UBOs should have to implement before they can have the status.

Full Committee Chairman Tim Walberg (R-MI)SPEAKER_11

That industry ride industry-wide standard is, is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Mr. Lawrence EpsteinSPEAKER_06

Thank you.

Full Committee Chairman Tim Walberg (R-MI)SPEAKER_11

Ms. Ali, you co-founded the Muhammad Ali Center with your late husband. Core mission of the center, as I understand, is to continue his legacy for promoting respect and inspiring positive change. How do you believe H.R. 4624 works toward achieving those goals?

Mrs. Lonnie AliSPEAKER_12

Thank you for that question, Congressman. My husband spent his life trying to inspire and uplift people, especially those who did not have a voice of their own. In this situation, a lot of the boxers don't have that voice either. I appreciate this bill in particular because it addresses not only the legacy of Muhammad in his sport of boxing, where it will maintain that that presence of boxing in American sports culture, but also what it does for the people who participate and make that sport possible for us to watch. It will uplift them with minimum payment for each round they box, the health and safety standards that are that have been incorporated into this act, especially the MRI and MRA brain testing, which is especially important to me. Every 3 years, beginning the first year and then every 3 years thereafter, they are required to take that test. As well as the, as I said, the performance and recovery institutes that they have. My husband never had any kind of opportunity to have that kind of support as an athlete. A lot of other league athletes do. And boxers are entitled to that as well. And I believe that my husband would approve of the of the provisions in this act that uplift those boxers and provide a pathway, just the way it provided a pathway for him, to a bigger platform to make an honest living, a decent living, and to be protected while doing so.

Full Committee Chairman Tim Walberg (R-MI)SPEAKER_11

Thank you. Before I yield back, because I have to here, I want to say, Mr. Foster, thank you for bringing reality in your testimony to what the sport is about and what fighters go through. Thank you. I yield back.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

Thank you, Chairman. I will next recognize our ranking member of the subcommittee for 5 questions— 5 minutes of questioning.

Ranking Member Ilhan Omar (D-MN)SPEAKER_00

5 questions Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. English, thank you so much for joining us. Can you briefly remind us of what the world of boxing looked like before the Ali Act, and what were the conditions and practices that led to the Ali Act?

Mr. Patrick EnglishSPEAKER_09

repeating, in my view, it was thoroughly corrupt. Ratings were sold. We know that as a fact because there was a conviction as a result of it. There was a coziness, I think I say in my written testimony, between promoters and managers. Now, a manager should have a fiduciary duty to a fighter, manager meaning anyone who gets a percentage of the fighter's purse who is not a promoter. That was not the case. We had, and still do have, issues where you have relatives who manage fighters where a promoter has an interest. If you're asking also about the Health and Safety Act, it was a start. It wasn't the completion. There's a lot more that needed to be done, but the biggest thing that happened was the suspension list administered through the ABC into a company called BoxRec. Right now it's BoxRec; it was something else then.

Ranking Member Ilhan Omar (D-MN)SPEAKER_00

Let me ask you this. If the Revival Act was passed, would unified boxing organizations, or UBOs, be allowed to undertake any of the practices that the Ali Act prohibited?

Mr. Patrick EnglishSPEAKER_09

Yes. One major one is the coziness—again, I use that word—between managers and the UBO. Whether it's the UFC, Zuffa, or anybody else who may come along—nobody else exists right now—but I have seen provisions of contracts that require the signing with a, quote, "advisor," unquote, for 15% of a boxer's income. It was in a promotional contract. So, and that was an entity that was a Zuffa-related entity. Now that's absolutely prohibited. Now I don't know whether that contract was provisioned on the completion of this bill, but it's there.

Ranking Member Ilhan Omar (D-MN)SPEAKER_00

Yeah,

Mr. Patrick EnglishSPEAKER_09

if that, that is I don't know why, but it's there.

Ranking Member Ilhan Omar (D-MN)SPEAKER_00

Thank you. Mr. Epstein, the UFC settled a longstanding antitrust case after allegations of using restrictive contracts, keeping fighters' pay at roughly 15% to 20% of revenue, as Mr. English was kind of alluding to. What minimum share of event revenues can you commit today that boxers could receive under Zuffa Boxing league?

Mr. Lawrence EpsteinSPEAKER_06

Yeah, first let me just address sort of the lawsuit, which is part of your question. We did settle the lawsuit. It was 10 years of litigation. We made a business decision to settle it. But I want to be clear, there was no finding of any liability or anything along those lines. As far as committing to any percentage today, obviously can't do that. We're starting a new business. If this legislation is passed, we're going to be starting a new business, and it's going to be a small one. Okay

Ranking Member Ilhan Omar (D-MN)SPEAKER_00

Well, then, let me ask you this: UFC is being sued again, not only with more claims of wage suppression, but also new allegations of discovery violation, even though you just said there was no discovery, possibly withholding a substantial amount of evidence that was crucial to the UFC's bit for force their antitrust claims into arbitration. With all these lawsuits, I'm having hard time seeing why any of the fighters would ever be able to trust that they will be paid fairly in this system. So, Mr. Epstein, what would you tell the many boxers who are worried about being trapped in a long coercive contract? Or how will you make sure that the economic freedom of boxers will not be taken away under this model that you're advocating for?

Mr. Lawrence EpsteinSPEAKER_06

What I would tell them is they're going to have a choice. What's very clear from this legislation is that the existing Ali Act is not going to change at all. We're adding new provisions that will add for—we've talked about the unified boxing organizations, or UBOs. There's going to be a choice for athletes to make. I don't see how choice is a bad thing. If our system is not providing the economic opportunities for athletes, they can avail themselves to the existing system. But the problem we've got is the current state of boxing is is just a disaster. As was mentioned in previous testimony from from witnesses on this panel, there are no major media companies in the United States of America that currently broadcast in any way, shape, or form a consistent cadence of boxing events. If we if we look back 10 or 15 years ago, you had HBO, you had Showtime, you had ESPN Friday Night Fights, which I loved, Tuesday Night Fights on USA. I mean, I'm a huge boxing fan, too. I want this sport to be successful. I want it to win, and I really do believe that the UBOs will give it a chance. But ultimately, it's going to be a choice for athletes. If they don't like it, they can choose to stick with the existing system.

Ranking Member Ilhan Omar (D-MN)SPEAKER_00

Thank you.

Mr. Lawrence EpsteinSPEAKER_06

Thank you.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

Thank you, Mr. Epstein. I will go to myself for the next round of questions, and I'd like to continue and pick up where the ranking member left off. When it comes to competition amongst different organizations and the potential for increased competition through H.R. 4624, I would like to hear how UFC's safety standards compare to other existing boxing industry standards that are in place today.

Mr. Lawrence EpsteinSPEAKER_06

Thank you for that question. We believe that the UFC standards for health and safety are truly the gold standard in the combat sports industry. As I mentioned in a previous question, we provide accident insurance policies for all of our athletes. I think we have 750 athletes currently under contract. All 750-plus have what's called an accident insurance policy that covers them for all acute injuries. It was also mentioned by Ms. Ali that we have a UFC Performance Institute. That Performance Institute is a physical space that we have in several locations around the world that provides world-class training, nutrition, injury recovery, and sports science to all of our athletes free of charge. Those are just two things that we're doing to set the industry standard when it comes to combat sports. And the final thing which I will mention, because Mr. English did mention, is drug testing. And I was a bit confused by his comments, and I agree with him that there should be absolute transparency when it comes to adverse drug testing, performance-enhancing drug testing results. Over 10 years ago, we instituted what I believe to be the gold standard, not in the world of combat sports, but in the world of professional sports, a 365-day random out-of-competition testing protocol for all of our athletes, all administered by a third party. We don't decide who gets tested, when they get tested, for what they get tested, and all of the adjudication of any adverse results is handled by a third party. So this is the industry-leading stuff that we're doing for the health and safety in the UFC, and we absolutely intend to do this in a unified boxing organization structure.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

Thank you. And I would note, I mean, when it comes to boxing and a regulated sport like this, we're talking about compensation for fighters, we're talking about the opportunity for more competition, more highlighting of the sport on national TV, but safety standards and health provisions are critically important to those boxers. And I do believe that that is one area where competition in the marketplace could actually increase those standards for everybody across the industry as well, because boxers are going to be picking and choosing where they want to compete, and they're going to be looking at that whole array of issues, not just compensation and exposure, but also the health and the safety of the competing organization. So I think that is critically important that we highlight that here. Mr. Foster, I'll go to you next. Do want to talk about, with your long tenure in the industry and especially now as a regulator, how have you seen the boxing industry change since the passage of the Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform in 2000, and how do you believe that the changes that we are trying to correct can be remedied with the legislation that's being discussed today?

Mr. Andy FosterSPEAKER_04

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Some of the changes that I've saw have been somewhat negative over the over the years. We lost HBO. We lost Showtime. We lost FOX. We lost ESPN. We don't have We're not on TV. Boxing is not on TV anymore. DAZN, they're based in the UK. They're broadcasting. But that's been that's that's been one area. Another area that's been helpful is, like Pat said, we have the suspension list, and now that BoxRec's doing it, we've got really good with communicating with the other states. We don't have fighters fighting on suspension. That's been that's been helpful with with the Reform Act. But one of the things, Mr. Chairman, when we talk about what happened in '96 and what happened in 2000, now we're in 2025, is not how much has changed, how much is still the same. The boxers are still being exploited. Look, it was $100 a round 25 years ago. I'm talking about the minimum standard, okay? Dollar contracts are relatively, from my experience, a relatively newer type idea, giving the fighters the tickets to sell, and that's how you're paid, and making them do this kind of thing, and then this idea of having to use whether you're going to have to use your money that you just made to pay the deductible to get your stitches done. These are not okay, and this bill addresses those particular issues. Just in final, because I'm running out of time here, I think that adding competition will help the industry, because the sanctioning organizations, it's interesting to me that their fees are all the same, okay, or roughly all the same. The IBF will give you a break at 2% if you're the champion, I think, but the fees are essentially all the same. Isn't that interesting? I think it's interesting.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

Thank you again. And for our next questions, we'll go to Mr. Grothman from Wisconsin.

Rep. Glenn Grothman (R-WI)SPEAKER_08

Yeah, thanks. First of all, just, uh, you know, you're right, you don't see boxing on TV much anymore, but wasn't there a time in this country where if you were in the service, you either had to pick and be a boxer or a wrestler? You want to comment on that?

Mr. Lawrence EpsteinSPEAKER_06

Yeah, I can just jump in here quickly and just say virtually every branch of the U.S. military now trains in some form of combat sports: mixed martial arts, boxing, wrestling, etc. So, I think what you're saying is absolutely accurate.

Rep. Glenn Grothman (R-WI)SPEAKER_08

Yeah I think during the '50s if you were in the military. Okay. Your written testimony—well, this is for you, Mr. Epstein—your written testimony also says the current mega-event model in boxing financially benefits a few boxers at the top. How would the creation of

SPEAKER_UNKNOWN

a

Rep. Glenn Grothman (R-WI)SPEAKER_08

UBO organization promote growth for the sport and success spread out among the boxers a little bit more?

Mr. Lawrence EpsteinSPEAKER_06

Yeah, I think the model really is what we've done at the UFC. We purchased the UFC in 2001. We were doing a handful of events, four, five events per year. In 2026, we'll do 43 events. Typically, that's 12 to 14 bouts per event, so that's essentially 24 to 28 athletes competing. This is the type of stuff that we're going to do in the world of boxing. We're increasing capacity. We're going to not just create opportunities for one or two boxers every few years to do a mega fight, but create a consistent cadence of events, which of course means a consistent cadence of work for a huge number of boxers. As I mentioned, UFC, we're 750 athletes currently, plus or minus a few. This is the type of aspirations that certainly we have for the boxing industry, and that means, as I said, not just more athletes making more money on a per-round basis, but actually more athletes making money in general.

Rep. Glenn Grothman (R-WI)SPEAKER_08

Okay, how would the unified boxing organizations coordinate with state athletic commissions?

Mr. Lawrence EpsteinSPEAKER_06

State athletic commissions are a key part, and they're really the linchpin for all of the regulatory, health and safety, athlete payment issues that relate to boxing in this country. Every single event that we would do in the United States of America would only be done if it was sanctioned by a state athletic commission. So we do a lot of work with Andy in California. That would be the case if we did events in California. And I just want to repeat that we would not be doing any events in this country without them being fully sanctioned by athletic commissions.

Rep. Glenn Grothman (R-WI)SPEAKER_08

I remember the golden days of boxing and everything was always on Friday nights on ESPN. I'd like to watch; it was just tremendous. That being said, also love to watch football. And there have been lawsuits and such over football players. Even though they're okay when they're playing, the real injuries kick in when they're 55 or 60 years old. And in in boxing, you have a sport in which the goal is even to knock people out, which you don't have in football, that's a rarer thing that you see. How would you respond to criticism? And are there any statistics available on the number of, say, boxers who have Alzheimer's or whatever they get, say, 20 years after they retire compared to football players and the injuries that they get?

Mr. Lawrence EpsteinSPEAKER_06

You raise a very important issue, and one that at the UFC we've been involved in for almost 15 years now in investigating these issues. And I think the primary goal that we have is to allow our athletes to make informed decisions about their health and safety, provide them with information so they can make informed decisions. What we've been doing for the last 15 years approximately is funding— being the primary funder, along with some of the boxing promoters, by the way, they have contributed— in a groundbreaking study with the Cleveland Clinic. Cleveland Clinic has an outpost in Las Vegas. The goal of of this study is twofold. Number one, are certain people just predisposed towards brain injury because of the of their physiology? And number two, are there early indications that we can see before someone starts manifesting a cognitive deficit, we can see they're heading down the wrong path and get them out of the sport? It's not great to diagnose somebody with CTE after they've got it, but figuring out ways to stop people from getting it is the key. Yeah This this study that we've been involved in, as I said, with UFC athletes, with boxers, with other workers that have potential for brain injury, lots of data's come out of that, and we could share that data with this committee if you're interested in that. But I think around 40 or 50 peer-reviewed journals have looked at that data, and we're getting closer every day to a way where we can hopefully make as a condition of licensure for MMA athletes, for boxers, some sort of a test that will indicate if you're predisposed toward a brain injury or you're heading down the wrong path, you're out of the sport, you can't get a license.

Rep. Glenn Grothman (R-WI)SPEAKER_08

I'll just leave you with something. I knew a guy who was a very good football player on the collegiate level, but very, very good. And, uh, after he graduated from college, he started his own business, very successful, super guy. But he wound up getting Alzheimer's when he was like in his early 50s. And nobody's ever going to convince me that that was a coincidence, that this guy who used to brag to me that he'd hit guys with the crown of his helmet, which you're not supposed to do. He was a good football player. It a damn shame he died, I think, before age 60. And I want you guys, as you work through this, to think about that, because just because a guy doesn't have a serious injury the day of the fight or the week after the fight doesn't mean that over a course of 20 fights, he's going to have something that pops up when he's 55 years old, which is what's happened to the NFL now. So thanks.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

Thank you.

Mrs. Lonnie AliSPEAKER_12

Excuse me, may I add something to the testimony that Mr. Epstein just gave? Please,

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

Miss Ali, go ahead.

Mrs. Lonnie AliSPEAKER_12

Thank you so much, and thank you, Congressman, for your questions, because I think they are important. And as I said in my testimony, brain health is especially important to me because my husband suffered with Parkinson's disease, not from boxing, but I have seen what boxing can do to people. As you said, hitting people with your head can can later in life bring on Alzheimer's. That's why I am so proud and happy that this particular act brings in brain health as an issue, as a component where this MRI, MRAs will be performed every three years, so that the detection of brain health, the boxer will know where he where he is headed, how his brain health is, because you can see the imaging. You can see the damage that might be done and where it might lead to, especially when you are being seen by a neurologist who that is their expertise, as Mr. Epstein mentioned out in the Cleveland Clinic out in Las Vegas does that, specifically for boxers. So, no other provision in this in that other the parallel, I should say, the parallel boxing industry provides for this. No one asked my husband to take a required MRI to be sanctioned, to be licensed. This was something we did later, of course, in his life and found out about the Parkinson's disease, but it wasn't asked for any other boxer. So, this is a provision, I think, that is a strength that shows that the UBOs would be very, very interested and protective of the athlete, and one of the provisions, as I said, that I am so proud to have in there.

Rep. James Comer (R-KY)SPEAKER_02

Thank you.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

Thank you for adding that. And next, we will turn to questions for Mr. Messmer from Indiana.

Rep. Mark Messmer (R-IN)SPEAKER_13

Thank you, Chairman, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today. Mr. Foster, in your written testimony, you discuss how the current four-belt system has created a self-serving incentive to emphasize the ranking of a few boxers at the top at the expense of competitive, entertaining matches that could grow the sport. Can you discuss how this bill would foster healthy competition in boxing?

Mr. Andy FosterSPEAKER_04

Yes. Thank you, Congressman. So to answer your question, sir, you have to understand the way that boxing works, the current system, the four-belt system. So what you have is you have a promoter who signs a fighter, and that's the promoter's fighter. And then this is early in their career. And so what happens is that promoter will promote a fight and look for somebody that that person can beat, okay? Has to be good enough to pass my approval or whichever state's approval, but has to be reasonable but beatable, okay? And those people in boxing are called opponents. That's the term that we use. And then when you get a really good opponent, they're called the gatekeeper, okay? And we have some of them in the various weight classes, and then they move up. And so this goes on and on and on until you get an undefeated fighter, okay? This is what's happening. And then over here on the other side of the country or nearby, you have another promoter doing essentially the same thing, okay? And they're doing this. Now, all these people that have been beat all the time, they're attracting just loss after loss after loss, and they've got really no kind of recourse. They've got no promoter. They're not being promoted. But the undefeated fighter is. Now, at the end of this rainbow, all this way up, the sanctioning bodies have issued the regional belt, the this-and-that belt, whatever belt. They have a lot of belts. Let me give you, sir, in 1996, when the Professional Boxing Safety Act was passed, 619 titles were issued across the world by the sanctioning organizations. Last year, that number was 2,156, okay? So, you saw an increase in the number of titles. The fighters like to have them and the whole thing, but they charge for the belt. That system that I just explained to you is exploitive in a way. Now, under a UBO system, if a promoter has both sides of the card, their financial interest shifts. Their business model shifts from wanting to make sure that their fighter wins to making a competitive match that the public will want to see because it's a different model. So you want to have a fight that people will want to tune in and see. The first model is, well, you've got a fight that's kind of okay, people might tune in, but you're searching for the mega fight at the end where you have a big champion that's won all this stuff versus the other promoter's big champion, and you promote a big thing. They're just different business models. But when the focus shifts from trying to protect your fighter and getting the opponent beat to making competitive matches, in my view, that would be good for boxing. And one final caveat to that that goes along with it, let's say you've got one of these fighters that are promoted and they take a loss, okay? Their earnings potential just plummets the next go-around, the next fight. It just goes so far down. Whereas under a system where they've got both sides of the card, if the guy loses, so what? They've got a contract. They know what they're going to get the next time. This is what's happening in boxing. And I think that adding a UBO model, not taking away the current system, because remember, there's a difference here, sir. The United States This is for U.S. boxers. This is for American boxers, okay? These sanctioning organizations deal throughout the world, so we're dealing with world titles. And this is for American. And I think that the name of the bill, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act, I believe it will revive American boxing by providing competition for our fighters. Hope that answers your question, sir.

Rep. Mark Messmer (R-IN)SPEAKER_13

Yeah. Well done. So thank you. And I'll yield back the rest of my time.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

Thank you, sir. Next, we go to Mr. Comer from Kentucky.

Rep. James Comer (R-KY)SPEAKER_02

Thank you, Mrs. Ali. It's an honor to have you here today, a fellow Kentuckian and someone that obviously has left a huge positive impact in our state. I fly out of the Louisville Muhammad Ali Airport every every week to come to Washington, and I'm a big fan of the Muhammad Ali Center there in Louisville and all the great work that that you all do. And on behalf of everyone in Kentucky, we thank you for for the great work that you do in in Kentucky. It's inspiring to see the foundation continue to do so many good things, especially the pursuit to improve the the boxing industry and raise awareness of neurological diseases. I know that your husband would be very proud of of this legislation and and everything that honors his name, that bears his name, that does good for the industry. In addition to enacting Representative Jack's legislation, the Muhammad Ali Boxing Revival Act, what more can be done to address general safety and health concerns in boxing?

Mrs. Lonnie AliSPEAKER_12

Well, i'm not the expert, sir, but I think we're off to a good start with this bill. As I said, the brain health is what's most important to me, and I think we're doing that. If I was to suggest, maybe it would be more often, maybe every year instead of every 3 years. With regards to the physicals, I know that is important, the health and safety of the physicals, and I know that is also something that ends up with the state athletic commissions to make sure that the boxer is healthy. But also, as Mr. English mentioned about and Mr. Epstein mentioned about drug testing, and making sure that that is done randomly, it's transparent, and results are shared. And also, what is important is that when you think about the health of a boxer, it's not just the physical health. It's also about the economic health of a boxer and how that plays into this. The minimum standard that the bill is offering is $150 per round, which is more than what is in 40-plus states already. This gives an opportunity for boxers to earn a decent wage while boxing, which is important, and also gives them an opportunity in this system to ascend rightfully, competitively in their ranks to earn even more money. When I think about this bill and how it promotes Muhammad's legacy, it's about lifting people up, preserving boxing for America, making sure, like I said, that opportunity exists for other athletes, other people who want to pursue boxing. Because this is, as you said, it's a sport that's been in America for a very long time, over 100 years. It's the common man's sport, and everybody deserves an opportunity and access to be able to walk into a boxing gym and pick up a pair of gloves and aspire to be something greater.

Rep. James Comer (R-KY)SPEAKER_02

Right. Well, what would you hope to see change in the sport to foster new interest in boxing?

Mrs. Lonnie AliSPEAKER_12

I think that right now, we are looking at a barren landscape. Boxing is not there, and we need to change that. And how do we do that? The existing model, even though it's there, it is still fraught with problems and challenges for boxers. This is a parallel organization opportunity for boxers to participate in that will enhance, I think, the opportunity for boxing to be on a regular cadence, as Mr. Epstein said, on television, promoted, to bring back boxing. This is the start. This UBO is one organization. That does not prevent other UBOs from coming into existence, which is important. So when you see that competitive spirit and the ability to create that spectator sport, which is what all sports, professional sports really are, I think it's something that will increase awareness of the sport and really regain that fan base.

Rep. James Comer (R-KY)SPEAKER_02

Very good. Well, I appreciate that. I'm glad to support this legislation. Hopefully, we can revive the sport in Kentucky, where

SPEAKER_UNKNOWN

But,

Rep. James Comer (R-KY)SPEAKER_02

Muhammad Ali is without a doubt the most famous athlete to ever come out of Kentucky. So we're proud of him and his legacy and the great work that you all do, and happy to support this legislation. I yield back.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

Thank you. Next, we'll go to Mr. Fine from Florida.

Rep. Randy Fine (R-FL)SPEAKER_14

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I've got a few questions for Mr. English. I spent more than 10 years of my life in the casino business, and boxing was an important part of driving that business since I entered it back in the early 2000s. I want to talk about how boxing has grown or declined over time. Would you say there are more cards today, more or fewer cards today than there were 10 years ago?

Mr. Patrick EnglishSPEAKER_09

Well, it's a misnomer that there are substantially fewer. I got the research and I provided it to the staff. It would take more time than it's worth, but it's not hugely lower.

Rep. Randy Fine (R-FL)SPEAKER_14

Well, actually it is. In the 1990s, there were 250 to 300. I used to do this for a living. Actually, in the 2020s, there's about 100 to 130. We've seen about a 50% decline in US cards over time. It is your contention, so I understand, that the boxing industry, if you will, the opportunities available for boxers today is the same as it was in the '70s, '80s, '90s? It's just as good? The industry is

Mr. Patrick EnglishSPEAKER_09

not the same. It's

Rep. Randy Fine (R-FL)SPEAKER_14

not— the opportunities are the same, better or worse today than they were 20, 30 years ago?

Mr. Patrick EnglishSPEAKER_09

very different. I can't judge whether the fact—look, if Mr. Ali was a world champion today, and I always say this: How goes the heavyweight division, goes boxing. It's true. We don't have right now the prominent, and I'm speaking generally, of course, we don't have the prominent American boxers that we once did.

Rep. Randy Fine (R-FL)SPEAKER_14

Sure, and perhaps it's because the number of opportunities available to become that are smaller. So, my next question for you is this: Do you think if we created a second vehicle—UFC's been extraordinarily successful, created an industry out of nothing—do you think that if it was created, what we're talking about here, would there be more or less opportunities for boxers to engage in the sport and the profession that they want to participate in? More or fewer?

Mr. Patrick EnglishSPEAKER_09

Just to be very clear, I'm not arguing that there should not be a UBO, or whatever you want to call it. What I'm arguing is that the guardrails that are in the Muhammad Ali Act should apply universally.

Rep. Randy Fine (R-FL)SPEAKER_14

Okay, so let's talk about guardrails. Earlier this week, Terence Bud Crawford was stripped of his championship belt by a sanctioning organization because he didn't pay an exorbitant fee to the sanctioning organization. Are you are you aware of that? Yes. So there are pretty big problems with what goes on today.

Mr. Patrick EnglishSPEAKER_09

Many times I have suggested to fighters that they do not need a particular belt or any belt. I could give you the names of the fighters, but it's not important. Sometimes fighters transcend those belts.

Rep. Randy Fine (R-FL)SPEAKER_14

But you also said there's not a lot transcending right now. We don't have a lot of transcendors. Right now? There aren't—

Mr. Patrick EnglishSPEAKER_09

there, uh, we don't have as many as we did. I can think of a handful.

Rep. Randy Fine (R-FL)SPEAKER_14

Okay.

Mr. Patrick EnglishSPEAKER_09

Yeah.

Rep. Randy Fine (R-FL)SPEAKER_14

So you were involved, actually, in an Ali Act case involving Jeff Lacy versus your clients. You worked with this group called Main Events that was sort of involved in this space. When was the last time Main Events promoted a televised card? Because I'm focused on opportunities for boxers. Was it a year ago, 5 years, 10 years?

Mr. Patrick EnglishSPEAKER_09

I am not here as a representative of Main Events. I want to make it very clear.

Rep. Randy Fine (R-FL)SPEAKER_14

No, I understand. I'm asking

Mr. Patrick EnglishSPEAKER_09

a fact question. They've got a card that they're co-promoting in January.

Rep. Randy Fine (R-FL)SPEAKER_14

But when's the last time before that?

Mr. Patrick EnglishSPEAKER_09

It was in Florida last year, maybe early this year.

Rep. Randy Fine (R-FL)SPEAKER_14

couple opportunities. Look, the fact of the matter is this: in the in the 1980s, the 1990s, boxing was considered one of the Big Three sports. There were massive opportunities available for people who want to participate, and it was not only good for them, but it was good for the facilities, the entertainment venues, for the business that I came from. Everybody won by these increased opportunities. That industry is now in decline. And I think that we can oppose a bill like this because we want to keep the equivalent of the horse-and-buggy system of boxing going and and watch it continue to decline, watch it continue to create fewer and fewer opportunities for boxers, or we can live in the world the way it is today. And what we've seen is UFC has taken, over several decades, something that basically didn't exist and turned it into something extraordinary. I think we would all benefit. I think boxers would benefit if they had access to that same kind of opportunity, too. So, I I'm very grateful to Representative Jack for bringing this bill forward, and I'm going to be excited to vote for it if and when it comes before us for markup. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

Thank you. Next, we'll go to the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. Scott from Virginia.

Full Committee Ranking Member Bobby Scott (D-VA)SPEAKER_03

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Foster, who does oversight right now on the federal law?

Mr. Andy FosterSPEAKER_04

The Association of Boxing Commissions has some degree, some degree of oversight, but it's relatively limited. And with the Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform Act, it allows our state attorneys general to take an action if we need to do that, or it takes, we can send it to the federal Department of Justice.

Full Committee Ranking Member Bobby Scott (D-VA)SPEAKER_03

Who would do oversight if this bill passed? Who would be— who would do oversight for compliance with the provisions of this law?

Mr. Andy FosterSPEAKER_04

I would assume substantial compliance would be the state athletic commissions.

Full Committee Ranking Member Bobby Scott (D-VA)SPEAKER_03

Okay. What is the difference between a UBO and the present sanctioning organizations?

Mr. Andy FosterSPEAKER_04

Well, the current sanctioning organizations, they rate fighters. There's four of them: there's the World Boxing Council, the IBF. The World Boxing Council is based in Mexico City. The IBF is based in New Jersey. The WBO, that's the World Boxing Organization, they're based in Puerto Rico. And the WBA, I think they're Medellín, Colombia. I think that's right.

Mr. Patrick EnglishSPEAKER_09

Depends what day it is.

Mr. Andy FosterSPEAKER_04

Yeah, it depends. Yeah, I think they're Medellín, Colombia. And they rank the the the fighters, but the promoters, sir, have to have like they they work with the sanction organizations to like

Full Committee Ranking Member Bobby Scott (D-VA)SPEAKER_03

What does the UBO do that they don't do then?

Mr. Andy FosterSPEAKER_04

Well, the UBO would essentially be the promoter, and that's kind of the big difference, is the UBO would be ranking their own fighters. They'd have both sides of the card. And there's a lot of benefit to that, sir, because you don't have to wait to ask who can fight who. Okay? Like there's all these mandatories that happen once a year or about annually. So what happens is you have like four different lists. You have four groups, and there's four different lists. Now, some of these people are the same on the list, but a whole lot of them aren't. So like if somebody gets a mandatory, you have to the champion is supposed to gets a letter and says, Hey, congratulations. You're the champion. You've got like six weeks or eight weeks to negotiate a deal with the number one contender, or our mandatory champion. And it sounds great when you say it like, but it's not what happens in reality. A lot of times what happens is if there's a better fight, for financial reasons, they'll try to do what's called a special exception or a special

Full Committee Ranking Member Bobby Scott (D-VA)SPEAKER_03

How would a UBO fix that?

Mr. Andy FosterSPEAKER_04

A UBO would have their fighters fight the fight that they believe is reasonable for the rankings. They would have probably—I've got to think that they're going to do it the other way that the other group does it and have the media do the rankings. So, I'm older, but the newspaper or the internet media people would do the rankings, and you wouldn't have to be forced into a mandatory. You could have the champion fight the number six if that made sense. But most of the time, it is the number one contender versus the champion.

Full Committee Ranking Member Bobby Scott (D-VA)SPEAKER_03

Does Does the bill anticipate a specific organization to be a UBO, and can others qualify?

Mr. Andy FosterSPEAKER_04

Yeah, absolutely. I think that there's going to be—

Full Committee Ranking Member Bobby Scott (D-VA)SPEAKER_03

absolutely. What

Mr. Andy FosterSPEAKER_04

I think that absolutely there will be multiple UBOs in a short amount of time if this bill were to pass. I would think of three or four would pop up within three or four years of this bill passing, because it will take a little bit of time to get going. But at least three or four.

Full Committee Ranking Member Bobby Scott (D-VA)SPEAKER_03

Now, there's several provisions in here, minimum amount per round, insurance requirements, and things like that. Is it better to do that by statute or by regulation where the— it'd be easier to update the amount per round or the insurance coverage or the kinds of health requirements? Would it be better to do that in statute or by regulation?

Mr. Andy FosterSPEAKER_04

Congressman Scott, that is an excellent question, sir. That is an excellent question he just asked. We've been trying—look, we did it by regulation the first time and by statute the second time, but we're one state. We had, I think, 90 or almost 100 boxing events last year, but that's one. To get the entire country on the same page of a minimum, we have to have the United States Congress do this, because 50 state legislatures or thereabouts are not going to take this up, or 50 state commissions aren't going to run regulations. It's going to take Congress.

Full Committee Ranking Member Bobby Scott (D-VA)SPEAKER_03

Thank you, Mr.— unless, Mr. Chairman, you had a national commission. Mr. Chairman, my time has expired.

Mr. Patrick EnglishSPEAKER_09

Can I just have half a second to address that issue? John McCain was moving toward preparing a bill that would create a national commission which would do exactly what Mr. Scott, Congressman Scott, was talking about. Obviously, he got partially diverted by presidential politics and then unfortunately, an illness. But that is something that this Congress could do, and in my opinion, should explore.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

Thank you.

Mr. Patrick EnglishSPEAKER_09

Thank you.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

Finally, we will go to Mr. Allen from Georgia.

Rep. Rick Allen (R-GA)SPEAKER_10

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I want to thank you for allowing me to waive on the committee. And I did that because growing up in the late '60s and '70s, boxing, football, and sports and athletics was everything to young men. And in fact, in high school, when you wanted to settle a difference that resulted in a fight, and our coaches came up with this, rather than expel the young men, they went to the gym, put on the gloves, and settled it, usually ending in both, exhausted, hugging each other, walking out of the gym. It's amazing. In fact, we settled it in college. My fraternity brother was Golden Gloves. Nobody messed with him in the state of Florida. My hometown of Augusta is mostly known for golf, but we have the Augusta Boxing Club, and I wanted to lift this up and lift this club up. It's better to sweat in the gym than bleed in the streets. The Augusta Boxing Club, with assistance from area law enforcement agencies, is structured as an after-school community support organization with a goal to curtail drug abuse and crime among young adults and children. There is a great story in boxing, and I wanted to lift that up. And I can tell you, as Ali—what is it? Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. I'll never forget that, and I never missed one of those boxing matches. It was amazing. But your testimony talks about, and we've all talked about, the steady decline in popularity and integrity. And you've talked about what H.R. 4624 does address as far as the industry, but how's it going to elevate the sport's prominence to where it was once was? Do you believe it's got the potential to do that?

Mrs. Lonnie AliSPEAKER_12

I don't know all the answers to that, sir, but I do believe it has the potential. And what you just mentioned about the fighter, the boxing club that's in Augusta, and you lifting that up, that is one thing that this unified boxing organization and this bill talk about, that they intend to invest in those police athletic leagues that are in different communities. As I said, this is the sport for the common man where a child can walk in with a pair of sneakers and that's all they need and get a pair of boxing gloves that takes them off the street. It gives them community. It gives them goals. It gives them hope. It gives them inspiration. It gives them guidance and coaching, and that's important. And the investment into those police athletic leagues that used to exist when my husband came along that he became a part of. Joe Martin, the officer who coached my husband for a very long time, was the head of that Police Athletic League that gave my husband that platform, that start to become who he was, a global icon. So, you know, the sky's the limit, and this is really important of pushing that pipeline of children into that

Rep. Rick Allen (R-GA)SPEAKER_10

It's big in Augusta. We have the Augusta Exchange Club Agricultural Fair, but the biggest draw is this boxing club performs and that we give prize money for them displaying their skills in the ring in front of fairgoers, and it's become a tremendous success. Mr. Foster, you referred to the Unified Boxing Organization model as a league-style model. Can you tell us how a league-style model would result in more competitive matches, which would in turn result in greater interest from the public in these fights?

Mr. Andy FosterSPEAKER_04

Yes, Mr. Allen, thank you for the question. It's like I mentioned in in in a previous question is when you have the when you have both sides of the card, you have a financial incentive to make a good fight, okay? It's not trying to protect the the A-side boxer to have a pretty good fight, but a fight that you know that you can win all the way up until you get to the undefeated end of the rainbow, so to speak. You have a financial incentive to make a good fight every month or every two months or however the the frequency of the the fights are going to happen. So I believe that that would answer your question. I think it's pretty obvious why that would why that would make a better fight. You would be financially incentivized to do so.

Rep. Rick Allen (R-GA)SPEAKER_10

Well, I want to thank all of you for taking your time to be here today. And I want to help you. I want to get back to the kind of boxing that we enjoyed, that I enjoyed growing up. And early in life. And if there's anything I can do to help you, I want to do that. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

Thank you. And that concludes questioning from our members. So we're going to go to closing remarks. I'd like to recognize the ranking member for her closing statement.

Ranking Member Ilhan Omar (D-MN)SPEAKER_00

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And once again, thank you to our witnesses for speaking with us today. Boxing is a sport that requires fighters to push their bodies and minds to the limit to achieve greatness and provide entertainment for millions of viewers. These incredible feats of athleticism deserve our utmost respect and our commitment to ensuring these fighters get paid fairly, retain their leverage in the industry, and have their health and safety prioritized. While this bill is not entirely bad, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act does not yet live up to that promise. We've already gotten recommendation for an amendment from Mr. Foster. So I do recommend that before this bill moves any further, that my colleagues take a moment and check in with the people who will actually feel the impact of these reforms. Talk to your state athletic commission, your local boxing gym, the small and small venues, and mostly talk to boxers in your community. We should hear all perspectives and make sure that we are making fully informed policy decisions that truly helps workers and small businesses around sports. I welcome future bipartisan discussions on how to best serve boxers and improve the boxing industry. Mr. Chairman, I request unanimous consent to enter into the record

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

without objection

Ranking Member Ilhan Omar (D-MN)SPEAKER_00

an op-ed by Oscar De La Hoya and Evander Holyfield opposing H.R. 4624, a tweet by Nico Ali Walsh opposing the bill, an interview with a promoter, Bob Arum, expressing opposition to the bill, and a letter from Mr. Arum, an open letter to the combat sports community and Congress opposing the REVIVAL Act, a letter from MMA Fighters Association opposing the bill, a letter from Carlos The Ronin Newton, a member of the MMA Fighters Association, a letter from Sara McMann, a 2004 4 Olympic silver medalist in wrestling, former UFC contender, and now owner of a martial arts gym, also opposing the REVIVAL Act. I would also like to enter data from BoxRec about the number of fights and boxing events in recent years.

Chairman Ryan Mackenzie (R-PA)SPEAKER_05

Without objection. Thank you. And i would just like to thank all of our testifiers again for joining us here today. I think we all got to share in some of the remembrances of not only the great Muhammad Ali, but other great fighters that we enjoyed watching growing up and during that heyday and that golden age of boxing. And again, Larry Holmes resides in our community, the Easton Assassin. He's been there for a long time. And as a child, I remember growing up and in school, the talk and the buzz was all about the Tyson-Holyfield fights and what was coming up on on pay-per-view. Everybody enjoyed those and really looked forward to them, and it's something that we want to try to get back to. And so that's what this legislation is is hoping to achieve by reviving American boxing. And we know that it is such a great sport, but in some ways, it is being constrained by the current regulatory structure that is in place, by the outdated practices not only for paying fighters, but also keeping them safe. And we want to make sure that we we revive American boxing, bring it back to its greatness and its glory, and I think we can do that by working in a bipartisan fashion. So your testimony here today is critically important as we start the process for H.R. 4624, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act. This hearing is is just the beginning of a legislative process that goes on here in Congress. Look forward to welcoming amendments to be considered by the full committee as we will hopefully take this legislation up soon. And again, hopefully we can get back to a golden age of American boxing. And as I say, make American boxing great again. Thank you all for being here. And with that, this meeting is adjourned.