Understanding Judea and Samaria: Historical, Strategic, and Political Dynamics in U.S.–Israel Relations

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

The Subcommittee on the Middle East and North Africa will come to order. The purpose of this hearing is to examine the historical, political, and strategic context of Judea and Samaria. I now recognize myself for an opening statement. I want to begin by thanking my colleagues for being here today and our witnesses for taking the time to share their expertise with the committee. Your perspectives are invaluable as we continue examining one of the most complex issues in U.S.-Israel relations. In September, this subcommittee held a roundtable with Ambassador Huckabee to hear directly from the administration about its current efforts in Israel and its perspective on the evolving landscape in Judea and Samaria. That discussion provided valuable context on the policy challenges before us. Today's hearing builds on that foundation by taking a step back and focusing on the historical, legal, and strategic dynamics that shaped this issue. Judea and Samaria remain central to decades of diplomatic debate, negotiations, and regional tension. The region's modern history, from its role in the British Mandate to the unresolved sovereignty questions in 1948, to the Jordanian occupation from 1948 to 1967, including the displacement of Jewish communities during that period, continues to shape legal interpretations, security considerations, and international discourse today. In recent months, international discussions about the future of these territories have accelerated. To understand this, we must also understand the historical context that led us to this point. Understanding the daily realities for communities in these areas, the security challenges they face, and the implications for Israel's broader defense posture is essential to evaluating U.S. engagement and future policy discussions. Our witnesses today bring deep historical, legal, and strategic knowledge. Their testimony will help clarify key facts, illuminate longstanding debates, and provide members with the nuanced understanding needed to assess U.S. policy moving forward. Ultimately, our goal is to ensure that American policy is rooted in facts, strengthen our relationship with Israel, and support long-term stability and security across the Middle East. I now recognize the ranking member from California, Representative Sherman, for an opening statement.

Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA)SPEAKER_04

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I should explain that I am the acting ranking member until the gentlelady from Florida deals with some issues. And those of you on the committee know that I've been here for 29 years. I've been chair and ranking member of a variety of different subcommittees, and I look forward to filling in in this role. As to this hearing, we can start with a map of Judea and Samaria, and we will see that during most of our history, the Jewish people were an inland people. Yes, indeed, Hebron was part of the Kingdom of Judea, but Tel Aviv wasn't, except when Israel or Judea reached its maximum extent, as it did at various times in its history. If we turn to any nationality and say, you define your borders based on the maximum you ever controlled in history, then Mongolia would control half of the world, the Greeks would control Anatolia, the Germans would be restored to East Prussia, and the Chumash would own my condo in the San Fernando Valley. The fact of the matter is that modern Zionism focused more on the coastal plain than the ancient Israelites or the ancient Kingdom of Judea, that the borders in 2025 should be drafted based on where people live now. Otherwise, you can call Israel a colonial settler state. Now, that ignores the Jewish tie to the land, albeit slightly different borders of ancient times, but it also ignores the fact that every group of human beings is a group of colonial settlers. That before there were Chumash in the San Fernando Valley, I'm sure there were other tribes. That before there were the Turks in Anatolia, there were the Greeks. That before there were the Poles in northern Poland, there were the Germans. And before there were the Arabs in Morocco and Egypt, these lands spoke Latin and Berber and Egyptian and Greek, and one of the greatest imperialist enterprises in the history of the world was the Arab Empire and the First and the Second Caliphates. So the question it is interesting to study history. I spend a lot of time doing it. But history should not be guiding us we shouldn't as to resolving modern problems. The slogan, From the river to the sea, is an ugly slogan, whether it is in the mouths of those who would expel or kill every Jew living west of the Jordan River, or whether it is in the hands of those who would permanently disenfranchise, and in a few cases or a few extremist politicians, expel the Arabs living in that same area. Now, the Palestinians have never lost an opportunity to lose their state. If we can put up the second chart. In 1947, the Jews of Israel accepted this 1947 map. As you can see, the majority of the populated areas are in the hands of the Arabs who now call themselves Arab Palestinians. So then we see the 1966 borders. We also don't have a map of it, but we see the Palestinian state that was offered by President Clinton with the approval of Israel in his last weeks in office. Again and again, to the amazement of the world, Palestinian leaders representing less military power demand total control of all the land. It is hard to recognize how unreasonable their bargaining position is because we're used to the ones the side that has the less military power accepting the more reasonable bargaining position. So I look forward to learning some history here, Mr. Chairman, but I am not going to focus my beliefs on how we should design peace in the Middle East on a discussion of whether the Samaritans were Jews or whether they're a separate group. And I yield back.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

you to the ranking member. Other members of the committee are reminded that opening statements may be submitted for the record. We are pleased to have a distinguished panel of witnesses before us today on this important topic: Professor Eugene Kontorovich, the senior research fellow at the Heritage Foundation; Mr. Morton Klein, the president of the Zionist Organization of America; and Dr. Jon Alterman, the Brzezinski Chair in Global Security and Geostrategy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. This committee recognizes the importance of the issues before us and is grateful to have you here to speak with us today. Your full statements will be made part of the record, and I'll ask each of you to keep your spoken remarks to five minutes in order to allow time for member questions. I now recognize Professor Kontorovich for an opening statement.

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

Chairman Lawler, Ranking Member Sherman, and honorable members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to speak on the topic of Judea and Samaria at this hearing. Let's start by discussing what is Judea and Samaria. It's a geographic name for the hilly regions north and south of Jerusalem. It's largely synonymous with the term West Bank, which the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan gave to the area when it conquered it and annexed it in 1950. Regardless of the name, some claim that this territory is currently under belligerent occupation by the State of Israel and that international law places numerous restrictions on Israel's presence and conduct there. I will explain how, according to the rules of international law applied everywhere else in the world, the territory is not occupied, and in fact Israel has a strong sovereign claim to it. In May 1948, the Mandate for Palestine came to an end, and the State of Israel was established. Five Arab armies immediately invaded, seeking to prevent the establishment of the Jewish state. President Truman, however, promptly recognized, quote, "the Jewish state" proclaimed in Palestine. So what were Israel's borders when it was created in May 1948? In international law, there is a simple, clear rule to determine the borders of new countries. Under the doctrine of uti possidetis juris, a new country automatically inherits the borders of the last top-level administrative unit in the area. In other words, pre-independence internal boundaries carry over to become the external boundaries of the new state. The continuity of prior borders is the sole deciding factor, trumping fuzzy and hard-to-administer considerations like self-determination, and as the ranking member pointed out, historical title and historical presence. The rule is a matter of textbook international law, and the reasons for it are clear. Demographics and history give rise to multiple competing claims, whereas uti possidetis provides a unique, unambiguous solution. Take, for example, Crimea. The territory had been part of Russia and the Russian Empire for most of the past several hundred years. The majority of the inhabitants were Russian speakers. Yet the international community rightly considers Russia's annexation of the territory illegal and regards it as Ukrainian territory to this day. The reason is simple. It is the uti possidetis juris principle. Nikita Khrushchev had redrawn the internal borders of the Soviet Union to place Ukraine in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. It had previously been in the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic, a fairly arbitrary decision on his part. When the Soviet Union collapsed and Ukraine became a state, it automatically inherited the borders of the last top-level unit, the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. So when Israel gained independence, the preceding geopolitical entity was Mandatory Palestine, which included Judea and Samaria. That's not in dispute. So Israel's borders upon independence automatically extended to all of the mandatory territory it succeeded to. Indeed, throughout the Middle East—Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan—the states that had been League of Nations mandates to this day still have the borders of the mandatory territory. In each of these countries, the mandatory borders were drawn in ways that included discontented minorities unhappy to be part of the larger state, be it Muslims in then-Christian Lebanon or Kurds in Iraq. But in none of these cases have such arguments been seen as a reason to redraw the new borders. Now, Jordan and its allies failed at wiping out the Jewish state in 1948, but they did occupy much of Palestine, including Judea and Samaria. It ethnically cleansed every single Jew from this area. When Israel took these areas in 1967, it was not occupying foreign territory, but rather taking territory to which it had sovereign title since 1948, sovereign rights. Imagine if Ukraine dislodged Russia from Crimea. Would anyone say that Ukraine was now occupying Crimea because Russia had administered it for so long? The neutral application of these rules can very be clearly can be clearly seen in the Karabakh conflict. A majority-Armenian region within Azerbaijan with a deep Armenian history. Armenia took control of it in a war with Azerbaijan at the time of the country's independence in the early '90s. Yet since Baku captured the territory in 2023, no one treats it as an occupying power. The reason is simple. Karabakh had been within the boundaries of the Azeri Soviet Socialist Republic and automatically becomes part of the state of Azerbaijan. So under widely agreed international rules, Israel has sovereign rights to the territory. The legal principles are not controversial. Some just want to create a unique carve-out for the Jewish state. To conclude, let me turn to practical applications. Some who believe the road for peace depend on the creation of a sovereign Palestinian state may worry that the legal analysis here prevents that. That is not the case. The law is neutral to diplomatic solutions. Israel's sovereign rights to the territory does not prevent and indeed enables it to cede some or all of it for the creation of a separate Palestinian state. What the legal analysis does make clear is there is nothing about the 1949 armistice lines that make them the legally mandated or even presumptive borders of such a state. I thank you for your time and attention.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

Thank you, Professor Kontorovich. Thank you, Professor Kontorovich. I now recognize Mr. Klein for an opening statement.

Mr. Morton KleinSPEAKER_05

Thank you, Chairman Lawler, Ranking Member Sherman, members of the committee. I'm president of the country's oldest pro-Israel organization, the Zionist Organization of America, ZOA. We're dedicated to advancing mutually beneficial U.S.-Israel alliance, combating antisemitism, and ensuring the safety of both America and Israel. Before that, I was in medical research, working for many years with the two-time Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling at Stanford University. The Jewish people are called Jews because we are from Judea. We are Judeans. Jew is a contraction of the word Judean. We are Judea and Samaria's indigenous people. American leaders have long recognized this. President John Adams wrote, I really wish the Jews would reestablish Judea as an independent Jewish nation. Other presidents, from Lincoln to Truman, have urged Judea and Samaria, then the region of Palestine, to become a Jewish state. Judea and Samaria is the historic Jewish homeland where Jews lived for thousands of years. This is where the first Jew, Abraham, purchased his and Sarah's burial place, where God first speaks to Abraham promising Judea and Samaria to him, which was the beginning of the Jewish connection to Judea and Samaria; where the Jews Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Sarah, Ruth, Leah are buried in the Cave of Machpelah, one of the holiest Jewish places in Judaism. Here was the first capital under King David. The Jew Jacob slept and dreamt here. The Jew Joseph is buried there. The Jewish tabernacle, the Ark of the Covenant, stood there for 369 years. And the Maccabees, the heroes of the Hanukkah story, lived and established their base to reclaim Israel and the Jewish temple and built fortresses there to protect the Jewish people. Exodus in the Bible relates that Moses and Joshua led the Jewish people to their homeland in Judea and Samaria. Jews have had a continuous presence there for over 3,000 years. The Jewish spiritual and historical connection has never severed or lapsed for Jews. Judea and Samaria was in the heart of the Jewish kingdoms that existed for hundreds of years. King David and Solomon unified Jewish kingdoms. Jews lived in Hebron, the oldest Jewish community in the world, until the infamous massacre of Hebron's innocent Jews in 1929, but came back in 1935. By contrast, Arabs hail from Arabia and North Africa. They are not indigenous to Judea and Samaria. There was never a Palestinian Arab state in Judea and Samaria, even when they controlled it from '48 to '67. Palestine is a Roman name, not an Arab name. The Romans renamed Judea and Samaria and surrounding areas Palestine after the Jewish enemy, the Philistines, to cause pain to the Jews and to try to de-Judaize the area. Arabs can't even pronounce the letter P. They can't say Palestine; they say Falastin. Judea and Samaria, moreover, is legally Jewish land. A series of binding international agreements—the San Remo Resolution, League of Nations Covenant, British Mandate, Lodge-Fish, UN Charter Article 80—recognized the Jewish people's connection to the land and guaranteed the land of Israel under international law, including Judea and Samaria, to the Jewish people. UN resolutions that contradict the UN Charter are absolutely legally void. In '48 and '49, Jordan attacked and illegally seized Judea and Samaria. Jordan killed or expelled the Jews, illegally occupied the area for 19 years, only recognized by two countries, and renamed Judea and Samaria the West Bank in order to de-Judaize it. In fact, the initial PLO Charter, Article 24, explicitly states that the PLO has no territorial claims over Judea and Samaria and Gaza. And Jordan relinquished their claims in 1988. The PLO sought Israel's destruction then as now, as the Palestinian demand is likewise not about a state. It's about destroying Israel and murdering Jews and Christians. This is the emblem of the Palestinian Authority showing all of Israel with a keffiyeh over all of it, a picture of Arafat, and the rifle, a Kalashnikov rifle. This is not the emblem you use if you want peace with the Jewish State of Israel. This is a picture of one of the suicide bombers. They do pictures and posters of every suicide bomber, and honoring him as a hero and a martyr, and put this up in universities and high schools throughout Judea and Samaria. This is not what you do if you want peace with the Jewish state. The Arabs were offered a state, rejected it eight times since the Peel Commission in '37, three times in the last 20 years. In '67, Jordan attacked Israel again. In that war, Israel regained the lawful lands of Judea and Samaria. Today, there are 500,000 Jews living in Judea and Samaria. This is Jewish land legally, religiously, biblically, politically, and morally. Judea and Samaria are strategically located for Israel's security. If they give it up, Judea and Samaria, it'll only be 8 miles wide. The Oslo Accords have made clear that a Palestinian state would result in disaster. When they withdrew, when Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, 9,000 Jews left, 30,000 rockets, and October 7th happened. When under the Oslo Accords, when Jews gave up land, terrorism reigned supreme, with 10,000 innocent Jews being killed. The Palestinian Authority pays $400 million a year for lifetime pensions for terrorists to murder Jews. Arab terrorists in Jenin and Samaria are launching rockets at Israel right now. Only this week they found manufacturing rockets that are going on there. Establishing a Palestinian state would send a terrible message that terrorism pays. There are 21 Arab states and one little Jewish state. That's the yellow. It's 600 times the size of the Arab world. We need peace. If Israel doesn't have control of the Jewish heartland in Judea and Samaria, peace will be impossible. Again, Judea and Samaria, Jewish Israeli land, is Jewish land legally, religiously, biblically, politically, morally. This is what's best for America. This is what's best for Israel. Thank you very, very much.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

Thank you, Mr. Klein. I now recognize Dr. Alterman for an opening statement.

Dr. Jon AltermanSPEAKER_06

Chairman Lawler, Ranking Member Sherman, distinguished members, thank you for the opportunity to talk with you today. The West Bank presents us with one of the hardest policy challenges we face. It's difficult because it combines ancient history, modern security threats, and deeply held religious beliefs. And here's what makes this especially complex. Even Israel's strongest supporters disagree about fundamental questions. President Trump has been clear. He told Time magazine that Israel would lose all support if it annexed the West Bank. Vice President Vance said the same thing after visiting Israel. Yet some of Israel's closest friends in Congress and the evangelical community see this matter very differently. If we're honest with ourselves, we need to recognize that not only are there competing claims here, but there are competing legitimate claims. And that's if we just consider what's clear from the historical record. When we bring in faith, values, and interests which aren't universal, the issue becomes even more complicated. I'm not here to advocate for one side or another or tell you who's right. I'm here to suggest that we're not dealing with a problem with one clear answer. Let me share a story. In my youth, I worked for Senator Moynihan during the Northern Ireland conflict. For decades, people said that conflict was unsolvable: ancient hatreds, religious divisions, antagonists at each other's throats. And a lot of Irish Americans were sending money to the IRA, which was killing civilians, and Moynihan and three other Irish American politicians came together to dial down the temperature. A decade later, former Senator George Mitchell helped negotiate the Good Friday Agreement, it was a 34-page agreement that left much unsaid. It spawned hundreds and hundreds of pages of clarifications, elaborations, and amendments. It didn't end disagreements, but it certainly did end the fighting, and Northern Ireland is a different place and a better place. That should be our principal goal, not finding a solution to this conflict today, but creating conditions where solutions become possible and then become real. Right now, we're headed in the wrong direction. When Hamas attacked Israel on October 7th, it wanted to isolate Israel in the world, end Israel's normalization with Arab countries, and make everyone lose hope. We cannot let them win. Israel worked hard for international acceptance since its founding. The Abraham Accords showed how previously unimaginable things are possible. But while some Israelis covet the lands of historic Judea and Samaria, 3 million Muslim and Christian Arabs live there. About 20% of Israeli citizens are already non-Jewish Arabs. Israel can't extend citizenship to Palestinians in the West Bank without fundamentally changing its character. Palestinians can't continue indefinitely with no clear legal status, and Israel's efforts to constrain Arabs' daily lives builds resentment, not acceptance. Ethnic cleansing would make Israel a complete pariah. Arab governments won't accept the current situation indefinitely, and neither will much of the world. Nobody has a perfect solution, not me, not anybody else. But I know that these solutions can't be imposed from the outside, and unilateral actions won't advance Israel's security. So what should America do? First, resist steps that foreclose future options. When we close doors, we make peace harder, not easier. Second, preserve space for negotiation. The parties themselves must find the way forward, but we can help keep that pathway open. Third, focus on improving daily life. Israelis and Palestinians alike who still hope for dignity, security, and peace deserve our support. Mr. Chairman, we can't solve this problem for them, but we can help ensure that resolution remains possible. After decades of violence and disappointment, that may not sound like much, but right now it might be everything. Thank you.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

Thank you, Dr. Alterman. I now recognize myself for 5 minutes of questions. This hearing serves an important purpose to educate everyone here and everyone watching at home about Judea and Samaria, or, as commonly known as, the West Bank. We speak so freely about this territory in Congress and in conversations across the country. And I think it's really important that we're actually all on the same page about what exactly we're talking about, especially when we talk about the potential for a Palestinian state in the future. So this map behind me is a current map of Judea and Samaria. The map is color-coded to showcase the different areas located within what is referred to as the West Bank. Area A, in burgundy, is the only area with full control by the Palestinian Authority. Area B, which is more of a mustard color, is under PA administrative control, but Israel has certain security responsibilities there. And then Area C, which is the rest of the map, the beige color, and covers over 60% of the land, is under Israeli civilian and security control. So when people say the West Bank, this is what we're actually talking about. So, Mr. Klein, why do you think fully understanding the makeup of Judea and Samaria is helpful for members of Congress as we talk about long-term resolutions to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and other topics at present time?

Mr. Morton KleinSPEAKER_05

Oh, sorry. Thank you. Israel has allowed— has given away all of Gaza, given administrative control to 40% of Judea and Samaria. This is where 99% of the Palestinian Arabs live. They live under their own rule. Nobody is occupying them. They have their own parliament, their own TV and radio, their own media, their own police force, their own businesses. It's important for people to understand this. And it's important for people to understand that Israel has offered a state to the Palestinians eight times in the last 80 years, starting with the Peel Commission in 1937, last with Ehud Olmert in 2008. Olmert offered them 97% of Judea and Samaria, 3% of Israel, and half of Jerusalem. They said no. I asked Ehud Olmert personally, Mr. Prime Minister, how could Abbas have turned you down? There was no compromise, you gave them everything. And he said, Abbas said he won't sign an agreement that says we support Israel as a Jewish state. 'I won't sign it.' We want— we will not— to have a limit to the number of Arabs that can move into Israel to 150,000, 'I won't sign it.' To have a clause that says there'll be no further claims, 'We will have further claims whenever we want.' So it's important to understand the history of this region and what was offered in Judea and Samaria that was turned down eight times in the last 80 years.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

No question Now let's rewind a bit. Mr. Kontorovich, can you clarify whether Judea and Samaria was originally part of the British Mandate for Palestine established after World War I?

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

Absolutely. It was part of the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine. There was no such distinct entity. There was also no distinct entity of Gaza. The current shape of it with its weird curves and bulges are simply as far as the Jordanian and Iraqi armies got towards their eliminationist drive towards the coast.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

So, when the British Mandate ended in 1948 and the State of Israel was declared, how was sovereignty over Judea and Samaria determined, or was it left unresolved?

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

So when a country is created, there's no formal announcement of its borders, the rule of uti possidetis works automatically to, if there is a dispute about its borders, then that determines its borders. So Israel's borders at the moment of its independence would have been the borders of Mandatory Palestine.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

And who took control of Judea and Samaria following Israel's independence in 1948, and under what legal framework did that occur?

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

The Jordanian army, the Arab Legion, along with Iraq and Saudi Arabia, who were helping them, under the framework of an invasion that was not recognized as lawful, an aggression,

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

And to what extent do past international frameworks or negotiations, such as Oslo and subsequent agreements, still shape realities on the ground today?

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

Oslo, I think, is quite important in that it did transfer the control of the lives of Palestinians and governance of Palestinians in Judea and Samaria to a Palestinian government, so they are, as Mr. Klein said, governed by Palestinians.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

within 40% of what is referred to as the West Bank,

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

which happens to be where most of them in fact live. Now, it's true that many of them have been trying to move into Area C on the theory that they already have A and B locked down. Now let's try to take control of Area C. Demographics does not hold still. Time does not stop.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

Thank you. I now recognize the ranking member, Mr. Sherman, for 5 minutes.

Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA)SPEAKER_04

Thank you, Mr. Klein. You point out that some of the greatest Jews in history lived in the West Bank near Hebron and elsewhere. But I would— it's my time, Mr. Klein. I would point out that some of the greatest Greeks in history lived in Western Anatolia and in Alexandria, a city founded by perhaps the greatest Greek of all, Alexander. Some of the greatest Greek temples to their false gods were built in Alexandria and in Anatolia. This does not mean that I support Greek annexation of northern Egypt or western Turkey. Our first question, Eugene, you go through a list of places where you look at the previous borders, I'd point out that the US rejects that when it comes to Kosovo, which of course was part of Serbia in the Yugoslav Federation. But I think we will find a time when Palestinian or Arab nationalists demand annexation and Israel rejects it. And I'll tell you why. You go back to your Ukraine example. You say, okay, Crimea, very much part of Ukraine. It was inhabited mostly by Russian speakers, a lot of Tatars. During the decades in which Kyiv controlled Crimea, were the Russian speakers disenfranchised or given the full franchise? Yes or no, it's a very simple question.

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

Is that a question? Yeah. They were allowed to vote in Ukrainian elections, right?

Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA)SPEAKER_04

And could you imagine what would happen in the Knesset if everyone living on the West Bank and Gaza were able to to vote? I think that would be a civil war in Israel. So annexation without enfranchisement is not something that the United States has has ever supported. But I'll point out that I think Donald Trump was very clear when he said in September, I will not allow Israel to annex the West Bank. I will not allow it. It's not going to happen. And while some have argued that you don't need to annex the West Bank because it's already part of Israel, clearly that's not what President Trump had in mind.

SPEAKER_UNKNOWN

Um,

Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA)SPEAKER_04

I've got a question for Mr. Klein. You're sitting next to the gentleman from the Heritage Foundation. Heritage Foundation President Kevin Roberts said conservatives should not be canceling Nick Fuentes, and he excoriated those who called out Tucker Carlson as a venomous coalition of the globalist class. I believe you have called out Tucker Carlson for platforming a man who says Hitler was very effing cool. Are you part of a venomous coalition of the global class when you call for the denunciation of Mr. Fuentes?

Mr. Morton KleinSPEAKER_05

Yes, Mike Huckabee's part of the venomous coalition, President Trump, Mark Levin. This was an outrageous statement. Obviously, when Tucker Carlson not only platforms a vicious Jew-hater and denier of the Holocaust who praises Stalin and Hitler without repudiating him at that interview—had he had him there as an interview and condemned him for virtually everything he said, that would be one thing. But to be nodding his head and letting him go on and on with this outrageous statement, that was what that was the crime.

Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA)SPEAKER_04

I'll now shift to the gentleman from the Heritage Foundation. How comfortable are you staying at the Heritage Foundation given this dispute about the man who thinks that Hitler is cool?

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

I don't think there's any dispute at Heritage about Nick Fuentes. I think the president of Heritage, Kevin Roberts, has subsequently very clearly denounced Nick Fuentes, and most importantly, our work to combat antisemitism has vastly expanded in the past couple years, certainly certainly since I came aboard in the past year.

Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA)SPEAKER_04

I'll go finally to Mr. Alterman. Can you think of how Israel— that if Israel were to annex the West Bank, do you think the world would tolerate the decades and decades of disenfranchising those who live there? And when I say disenfranchising, they might be allowed to vote in local elections, but no franchise to vote for the national government.

Dr. Jon AltermanSPEAKER_06

When I think of examples of countries that have had large populations where people, by nature of race, religion, ethnicity, have been systematically disenfranchised, it's not ended well, whether it's the French presence in Algeria, Southern Rhodesia, on and on and on. And as we currently see with the Chinese occupation of Tibet, it creates a—and also with the Uyghurs in Western China, it creates a sense of injustice.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

Thank you to the ranking member. I would just note there are Palestinian-Israeli citizens serving in the Knesset, okay? So show me the Arab state where there are Jews serving in their government, and looking forward to having

Dr. Jon AltermanSPEAKER_06

Bahrain.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

Yeah,

Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA)SPEAKER_04

but, but, but I would point out,

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

out of how many?

Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA)SPEAKER_04

Yeah,

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

out of how many? And that, that is one of the fundamental problems,

Dr. Jon AltermanSPEAKER_06

by the way. That

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

Is one of the fundamental problems that we're talking about. But moreover, when the president is talking about annexing, again, I think it's important to actually look at the map. 60% of the West Bank is under Israeli control. So the issue of annexation is on the Palestinian areas, not the Jewish areas. And that is the fundamental point that seems to get lost when we actually have this discussion.

Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA)SPEAKER_04

Mr. Chairman, I

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

now recognize—

Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA)SPEAKER_04

Mr. Chairman, I will insist upon an equal amount of time.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

No, I now recognize—

Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA)SPEAKER_04

Mr. Chairman, you cannot seize time.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

I now

Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA)SPEAKER_04

recognize— each side of this aisle gets the same time. I now recognize— I've been on this committee for 29 years. That's great. You should know the rules.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

I now recognize Mr. Burchett for 5 minutes.

Rep. Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_09

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is for all the witnesses. Excuse me. Is activity in Judea and Samaria, the West Bank, affecting the peace deal in Gaza? Go ahead, brother.

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

These areas have been separately governed and separately administered for quite a long time. The activity in Judea and Samaria does not directly affect peace in Gaza. Gaza has been really its own thing, at least since Hamas took over in 2006.

Rep. Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_09

Sir?

Mr. Morton KleinSPEAKER_05

Yes, the fact that the Palestinian Authority still has its charter calling for the destruction of Israel in many of the clauses in the charter, the fact that the Palestinian Authority violates the Taylor Force Act, the US act, paying Arabs $400 million a year for lifetime pensions to murder Jews and Christians, by the way, the fact that they name schools, streets, sports teams, and sporting events after Jew-killers and Christian-killers, this makes it crystal clear that the actions taken by Fatah in the Judea and Samaria territories make peace virtually impossible until they have a dramatic reformation and transformation of their actions and of their regime there. Yes, the actions in Judea and Samaria by Fatah and Mahmoud Abbas make peace absolutely impossible until there's a dramatic reformation.

Dr. Jon AltermanSPEAKER_06

There's no question that I find frankly objectionable things going on on both sides in both communities. I think there are extremists in both communities. It's a little hard to fully accept the idea of Palestinian self-rule. When it is hard for Palestinians to move between areas, it's almost impossible for Palestinians to build in many areas and get permission to build. Trade is restricted, currency and banking is restricted. This is, to an extent, self-rule. To the Palestinian Authority's credit, their security cooperation with the Israelis, which Israeli security officials will tell you is very, very important. It has created friction between the Palestinian Authority and some Palestinians who argue that there needs to be something, some sort of pressure to end the current status quo. But as I said, I think anybody being honest would say there are a lot of objectionable things happening on both sides. There are extremists on both sides. And the question is, how do you marginalize the extremists?

Rep. Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_09

I remember when I was labeled an extremist. I said I remember when I was labeled an extremist. Thank you. Um, Mr., uh,

SPEAKER_UNKNOWN

Kontorovich—

Rep. Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_09

Burchett's a tough name to say. I suspect they slaughter yours pretty regular too. Why is the area referred to as Judea and Samaria now and no longer the West Bank?

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

First of all, different people do call it different things. Judea and Samaria is a historical name. It's also, I think, important to know the name the United Nations actually used to refer to the area as late as 1947. West Bank was a term substituted by Jordan because it's to the west of Jordan. With the end of Jordanian occupation, there's no reason to call it the West Bank, and it makes sense to revert to its natural name, Judea and

Rep. Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_09

Samaria. Okay. What do you think the regional partners think of the debate over this area?

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

What do the regional partners think? So, obviously, some of them, for example Egypt, some of these countries are still mad that they lost a bunch of wars to Israel and are happy to continue any situation which weakens and undermines Israel. So they're happy to support entities and elements that are going to commit terror against Israel.

Rep. Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_09

All right, you each got about 20 seconds to answer this. I'll start with you, brother. What's your opinion on how to get this resolved.

Dr. Jon AltermanSPEAKER_06

Um, diplomats always talk about ripeness. I think it's not ripe now. The most important thing now

Rep. Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_09

is— hug that mic, I can't hear you.

Dr. Jon AltermanSPEAKER_06

I'm sorry. Diplomats always talk about ripeness. I don't think this is ripe to solve. I think the most important thing is to keep either side from taking steps that foreclose solutions and working toward progress in the future.

Rep. Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_09

Sort of a détente, I guess. Sir?

Mr. Morton KleinSPEAKER_05

Yes, there must be—

Rep. Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_09

your mic, here you go.

Mr. Morton KleinSPEAKER_05

There must be an immediate demand for a reformation of the Palestinian Authority, for them to stop having children like this beautiful Arab girl saying, What could be better than going to paradise? Promoting suicide bombings, that must be stopped. To change their stationery which shows all of Israel as Palestine, that must be stopped, and their atlases. So, that's what must be emphasized. You have to start fighting terrorism, stop paying Arabs to murder Jews and Christians.

Rep. Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_09

Real quick.

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'm not a believer in a solution, but there's a reason we're at this place, because every time the Palestinians say no to a state, as Mr. Sherman has said, they are rewarded with a more generous offer. You need to turn that dynamic around. Every no—

Rep. Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_09

Thank you.

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

It's less.

Rep. Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_09

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank the people in the crowd that are paid $15 to disrupt and distract us. I thank them as well. Thank you, brother.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

Thank you, Representative Burchett. I now recognize Representative Keating for five minutes.

Rep. William Keating (D-MA)SPEAKER_03

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is a congressional hearing in the United States of America. I'd like to focus on our position, what we're doing, what we can do to help. And when I say what we can do to help, I mean to bring peace in the region. So I'd like to ask Mr. Alterman, could you comment on, which is like half a century of U.S. policy where a two-state solution during that period has been first and foremost, and can you tell us your opinion if there can ever be anything that would interrupt this cycle of violence and killings that occur that wouldn't involve regional partnership in that solution?

Dr. Jon AltermanSPEAKER_06

I do. Let me make two points. One is that one of the things I've heard a lot from people in government is sometimes if you have an insoluble problem, the way to solve it is to enlarge the problem. And I think that the instinct of creating more regional support is a good instinct, which has started under previous administrations, which the Trump administration has quite admirably furthered and embraced, and I think that's part of the solution. The other thing is we've actually been pushing a two-state solution since the '50s. The Anderson Mission in 1955, '56. We go way back on this issue. And I think that we have to think less about how do we draw the border, and we have to think more about how do we create a two-state solution that changes the meanings of some phrases, and the phrases you have to change are two and state and solution. I think traditionally thinking of states in normal ways with impenetrable boundaries, that's— I don't think that's

Rep. William Keating (D-MA)SPEAKER_03

to work. Okay So along those lines, prior to the horrific, disgusting attacks on October 7th, was there great progress in moving along those lines you were talking about, where other countries in the region were buying into normalization for Israel? And wasn't that really an area of great progress, in your opinion?

Dr. Jon AltermanSPEAKER_06

There was a lot of progress. And one of the things that Hamas was trying to do was to undermine that normalization. I think that the Saudis, frankly, are ready to move in that direction. I think we're having a very— we're looking at a very different relationship with Syria, a very different relationship with Lebanon. The prospects are there. There's a problem with Palestinian leadership, no question. I think there's also a problem

Rep. William Keating (D-MA)SPEAKER_03

Israeli leadership. Just on a geographic basis, the capital of Jordan is 25 miles away from the West Bank borders. And when you have this kind of internal insecurity that's occurring here and the violence that's really, frankly, not being addressed and stabilized, how does that affect Jordan?

Dr. Jon AltermanSPEAKER_06

Is very concerned. About 60% of the Jordanian population is of Palestinian origin, and they are very concerned that either instability, an influx of more Palestinians into Jordan would disrupt that balance. That would create not only problems for us—we have a lot invested in Jordanian security—but also for Israel, which has built a security relationship with Jordan since

Rep. William Keating (D-MA)SPEAKER_03

creation. And really, the center of much of this effort for regional participation and really looking for a way to break that cycle has been Saudi Arabia. And that's been a focus of the current administration, prior administrations in trying to deal with this, but they support a two-state solution as a requirement. And can we move to that normalization without addressing this? And the other issue is we put a lot of time and working to support the Abraham Accords. This violence, it can unravel these regional partners. What's the effect on the Abraham Accords if this continues the way it is now?

Dr. Jon AltermanSPEAKER_06

I think the Abraham Accords may splinter. One of the goals of the Saudi visit when the Crown Prince was here was to divorce the U.S.-Saudi bilateral relationship from normalization with Israel. Their feeling is they were successful in doing that, partly because of the sense of where annexation and other things are and how alarmed the Trump administration is at their prospect.

Rep. William Keating (D-MA)SPEAKER_03

So the history lesson might be enlightening to some, but I'm really keen, and as a member of the U.S. Congress trying to deal with peace and bring peace to the region, how important this is. And I just wanted to take my time to underscore this is what we should be talking about, not looking backwards, but looking at the present and looking at the future in very pragmatic terms. I yield back.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

I now recognize the gentleman from California, Mr. Issa, for 5 minutes.

Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA)SPEAKER_02

Thank you. And I'm going to pick up where my colleague left off. You said two things. First of all, you paraphrased Eisenhower, who was the father of make the problem bigger. To solve a big problem is make, draw it larger, which President Trump has done in some not small steps. However, you also said we need to stop saying two-state solution. Is it fair to say that the two-state solution that once had a Pakistan that was in two parts with India in between is an example of a two-state solution that didn't work

Dr. Jon AltermanSPEAKER_06

Yes.

Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA)SPEAKER_02

Okay. And one of the reasons it didn't work was that you tried to have sovereign equality while, in fact, having intermixed groups that saw themselves based on their religion and other characteristics. In other words, they didn't respect the sovereign: a Muslim Indian and a Hindu Indian versus the same groups or others in Pakistan. Isn't that a corollary to what we have today outside of Israel, where most Arab Israelis consider themselves Israelis and have somewhat integrated? But within the West Bank and Gaza, that's exactly what we have, is they don't—they're not prepared to be a single sovereign nation.

Dr. Jon AltermanSPEAKER_06

Pakistan is complicated, India is complicated, the West Bank—and Gaza is simple? Exactly. So, I'm not I'm not sure the—

Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA)SPEAKER_02

Well, here's my here's my reason for asking. I was leading to a to one question, which is, if we were to take your two-state solution and say, we're going to throw it out the window, then should we in America, first of all, reject organizations like the United Nations and others who have declared statehood at a time in which you couldn't be further from a responsible government to govern the Palestinians themselves, and and instead be looking for a solution that is not a conventional state, one that has levels of autonomy, levels of governance, but in fact, as you alluded to, the borders would inherently be porous. The the question of militarization and so on would be dealt with in some ways as though it is one nation, and in other ways clearly with a recognition of the facts on the ground.

Dr. Jon AltermanSPEAKER_06

But the other piece of this, which actually makes me a little uncomfortable, but I think is a reality, is Israel's complete sovereignty is going to be compromised. When I— that's the meaning of working out a different meaning of state, that Israel's ability to unilaterally make decisions about finance, about security, about all those things would also be subject to some sort of outside—

Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA)SPEAKER_02

Let me go to the other witnesses, because I think I get what you're saying, but I also saw their heads moving. Finding a solution that provides sufficient sovereignty, sufficient control, but recognizes this intermixing of people and respects the fact that for better or worse, there is a functional government in Jerusalem and there isn't in Ramallah, could I get your comments?

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

Yeah, so contrary to some examples we've heard, Algeria or whatever, it's currently the case that Israel does not govern the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria, in the sense that they're not taxed, they're not conscripted, they're make-believe citizens. No, they are

Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA)SPEAKER_02

taxed, but it's refunded.

Dr. Jon AltermanSPEAKER_06

Sometimes refunded, and sometimes slowly.

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

Israel does not make their budgets. Israel does not draft them into the army. So, they govern themselves. Israel's relationship with these areas is purely one of security. That's what the checkpoints are about, et cetera. And even if they had an independent state, Israel would still have a right to maintain a security presence because every country has a right to self-defense. So, proposals about autonomy make a lot of sense. I would point out that there's places like American Samoa, part of the United States, who do not vote for you guys, but we don't consider this to be a situation of

Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA)SPEAKER_02

autonomy. But they do stand among us and have a say. Dr. Klein?

Mr. Morton KleinSPEAKER_05

First of all, we have to understand the problem is refusal to accept Israel as a Jewish state. Giving them a state doesn't change that. Iraq,

Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA)SPEAKER_02

This has been well established.

Mr. Morton KleinSPEAKER_05

And by the way, I have to disabuse Mr. Alterman. We keep saying that Hamas launched this atrocious attack to stop normalization. They were planning this attack for years. They were launching rockets starting in 2005, 35,000 rockets. That wasn't to stop normalization. It was to kill Jews and destroy Israel. If there was no normalization, they'd still be doing this. Don't act like this is some sort of a political act. And even Fatah, Mahmoud Abbas, he bragged that hundreds of his own people from the Palestinian Authority were involved in the 6,500 people who were massacring 1,200 Jews.

Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA)SPEAKER_02

Thank you. And thank you for your indulgence, Chairman.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

I now recognize Representative Dean for 5 minutes.

Rep. Madeleine Dean (D-PA)SPEAKER_00

Thank you, Chairman Lawler. Thank you, Ranking Member Sherman, for holding this hearing. And thank you to our witnesses for testifying today and bringing us your experience and your expertise. I always like to start by saying personally, by serving on this committee, by serving in Congress, I have had the great pleasure of traveling to Israel, to the West Bank, multiple times. And my own faith is enhanced as I go there because it is the birthplace of my own faith. I'm a practicing Catholic. We call it practicing because we never quite get it right. But it is enriching to go there, and to think about the history, to recognize the current sets of conflicts, and to look to the future for peace and justice for all who are there. But let's go back a little and talk about what the present is. What we are seeing from Israel, from Israelis in the West Bank, unprecedented settlement expansion, retroactive legalization of outposts previously illegal under Israeli law, and the authorization of new settlements. In August of 2025, this year, the Israeli government granted approval to build more than 3,000 housing units in E1, which is near East Jerusalem. Rising settler violence. October '25 saw the highest levels of settler violence in the West Bank on record, totaling 264 attacks. This includes lethal attacks against American citizens. And what we see is it has been reported between 2005 and 2024, 93% of concluded cases came up with no indictments. What we're seeing from the Trump administration, the 20-point plan that anticipates a greater role for the Palestinian Authority. Trump publicly stating, President Trump publicly stating in September of this year that he would not allow Israel to annex West Bank areas. So some questions that I have, if I could just start with you, Dr. Alterman. How are Israeli actions in the West Bank affecting stability and the Palestinian Authority's role as a counterweight to Hamas?

Dr. Jon AltermanSPEAKER_06

Israeli actions in the West Bank discredit the Palestinian Authority. They make it look weak. It is accused by many of being subservient to a dominating Israeli government. And I think one of the challenges that Mahmoud Abbas has had is the feeling from Palestinians is he's never really been able to deliver anything to Palestinians. He's been able to deliver things to the Israelis. He has about a 13% approval rating, which is pretty stark.

Rep. Madeleine Dean (D-PA)SPEAKER_00

And I've been there, as I said, and asked leading members of the coalition, the Netanyahu coalition, about settler violence, for example, or settler expansion, and they've denied it, literally using the word, as well as as the opposition leader too, using words like, Oh, that's just one rogue actor, this denial that it is even going on. What am I to make of that?

Dr. Jon AltermanSPEAKER_06

I think it goes on. It's hard to understand exactly how much outside of a classified realm. I'm sure that the US security coordinator and the intelligence community has a much better idea of separating truth from fiction there. There's no question in my mind that there are some groups in the West Bank who not only believe that they have a religious justification for being there, but argue that there's a religious justification for terrorizing Arabs. There are a lot of passages in the Bible, in Deuteronomy, in 1 Samuel, that talk about defeating enemies, defeating Amalek, killing, and a minority, a small minority, but a real minority, thinks that those are relevant to the current situation. I certainly remember being in a synagogue after 9/11, and somebody interrupted a rabbi and said, who was talking about what to do, and said, The Bible says you should kill—these are Amalek. The Bible says you should kill Amalek. That is a view.

Rep. Madeleine Dean (D-PA)SPEAKER_00

Thank you. Sadly, but it's important to understand that. I want to connect, and I think Mr. Sherman was asking about this also, and I appreciate your history of the Troubles in Northern Ireland. What can we say? I think there's interesting parallels here to other territorial conflicts, for example, Russia-Ukraine. Can you make some comparisons?

Dr. Jon AltermanSPEAKER_06

I think President Putin argues that Ukraine has a historic linkage with Russia, that it's historically part of Russia. President Eisenhower, if I can invoke him again, Mr. Issa has left. President Eisenhower argued in the 1956 Suez Crisis the US should push back against its allies, France, the UK, and also against Israel, coming into Egypt, because if we don't stand by international principles, if we don't push back on aggression, we will have to fight everywhere all the time. It is easier to defend Ukraine's sovereignty if we're consistent defending sovereignty.

Rep. Madeleine Dean (D-PA)SPEAKER_00

Thank you.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

Gentleman's time has expired. I now recognize Representative Jackson for 5 minutes.

Rep. Ronny Jackson (R-TX)SPEAKER_10

Thank you, Chairman Lawler. And thank you to our witnesses for being here today and for your time. Thanks to the incredible work by President Trump, Secretary Rubio, and the entire administration, all of the living hostages in Gaza have come home, and a comprehensive peace plan between Israel and Hamas is now in place. Now, the thoughtful implementation of the peace plan is key to the long-term success, and I'm committed to working with my colleagues in Congress, the administration, and all of our allies to ensure that this plan is executed effectively. In February, the Palestinian Authority reportedly ended its pay-to-slay program, also known as the Martyrs Fund. And as many of you may know, I've been key in providing legislation to try to stop this during the last administration and went so far as to sue President Biden over his refusal to enforce U.S. law in the form of the Taylor Force Act. Now we find that the Palestinian Authority has replaced it with a welfare program that allocates aid to families based on economic need, supposedly. Despite this reform, the same households that receive payments from the pay-to-slay program now qualify for the newly created welfare program. This raises the question, are these genuine reforms, or are these simply the Martyrs— is this simply the Martyrs Fund rebranded? So, Professor Kontorovich, how should Congress and the Trump administration evaluate the success of the reformed stipend system? And is there a tangible difference between the Palestinian Authority's pay-to-slay program and the new welfare payments that we're seeing?

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

Of course, there is no difference, because there has not been a change of heart and a change of mind. There is a desire to try to comply with U.S. legislation to allow funding and to say that they've reformed, but nobody believes they've changed their views. And it's crucial to point out that the 20-point plan, the comprehensive plan for Gaza, which you point out, only allows the Palestinian Authority to have any role in Gaza once they have completed a thoroughgoing slate of reforms, and they're at Day Zero, I would say, at this point.

Rep. Ronny Jackson (R-TX)SPEAKER_10

Thank you. Mr. Klein, did you have anything to add to that?

Mr. Morton KleinSPEAKER_05

There's been no change whatsoever in the Palestinian Authority's attitude to murdering Jews and destroying Israel. That's why he brags about the fact that hundreds of his own people were involved in October 7th. And we need to put enormous pressure for a major change in the Palestinian Authority. And with your permission, I have to say I urge all of you to read the Regavim report, a 125-page report, which totally destroys the lie of settler violence. It is extremely minimal. And these are false statements made by anti-Israel NGOs and the anti-Israel UN. This is absolutely false. And also, there's been almost no settlements built since Oslo began in 1993. Israel occupies 3 to 5% of Judea and Samaria. So this is one of the big, total nonsense lies. And if there was a deal made when Israel's offered a state three times in the last 20 years, if they accepted that, there'd be no discussion of this. They turn it down because they won't accept Israel as a Jewish state. Let's look at who is responsible for the constant lack of peace in the Middle East. It's the Arabs, not Israel.

Rep. Ronny Jackson (R-TX)SPEAKER_10

Thank you, Mr. Klein. I have one more quick question, see if I can get it in real quick. The Palestinian Authority has continually supported terrorism and militant activities against Israel while rejecting peace proposals within the country. Step 9 of President Trump's 20-point Gaza peace plan hinges on the Palestinian Authority completing necessary reforms in order to govern the public services and municipalities in Gaza. But the PA has a long record of taking actions to directly undermine regional peace and security. Once again, Professor, what makes this agreement different from past attempts at peace, and what reforms do you believe are the most important for the Palestinian Authority to implement to ensure lasting peace?

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

Yeah, so this agreement, the 20-point plan, in no way guarantees the PA a role, right? It provides conditions for when they may have a role, and as always, it's up to them to step up, and if they don't, they have no one to blame but themselves.

Rep. Ronny Jackson (R-TX)SPEAKER_10

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you again to the witnesses here. The success of President Trump's peace plan relies on all the parties involved acting in good faith to advance the agreement, particularly in the Palestinian Authority, as you just alluded to. I look forward to working with the president to fully implement the peace in the Middle East, and I welcome working with anyone who is committed to ensuring the same. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With that, I yield back.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

Thank you, Representative Jackson. I now recognize Representative Schneider for 5 minutes.

Rep. Brad Schneider (D-IL)SPEAKER_12

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank the witnesses for joining us. I want to commend my colleague in noting the return of all the living hostages. It's also important to note that one hostage, Ran Gvili, still remains in Gaza, and we all pray for his swift return. As an American Jew, Israel's security and the security of the Jewish people writ large has always been a central concern for me. I've always believed that the best way to open to ensure Israel's safe and secure future as a Jewish, democratic state is to find to find, to open, and to move down a path for peaceful coexistence of Jews and Arabs living together, which, by the way, is the vision of the Abraham Accords that I think all of us celebrate, and I'm proud to be a co-chair of the Abraham Accords Caucus. Jews, Muslims, and Christians all trace their stories to the same hills and cities. Israelis and Palestinians, on the other hand, only come into being at the same moment, on May 14th, 1948. The reason I think the Abraham Accords are potentially so transformational is that, for the first time, the accords put a formal put into a formal document the idea that both the Jewish people and the Arab people belong to the same land; that by finding a way to live together on that land with mutual recognition and respect, Jews and Arabs can finally break free from the gravity of history that has held them back for so long and chart a new path for integration, security, prosperity, and peace for all the people living in the region. As an American Jew, I was raised, and I will always be, a Zionist, holding fast to the Jewish people's aspiration and right to a state in the historical homeland of the Jewish people. That doesn't mean the denial or the dismissal of the Palestinians' similar aspirations, which is why I believe that peace includes ultimately a negotiated two-state solution: the Jewish, democratic state of Israel living in security, prosperity, and peace with a demilitarized Palestinian state, not something that will be there tomorrow, not even in the near horizon, but something out in the future, which is why I oppose unilateral annexation. President Trump has also said plainly that he will not allow Israel to annex the West Bank. Vice President Vance backed him up, stating the policy of this administration is the West Bank will not be annexed by Israel. Secretary Rubio has warned that record levels of settler violence in the West Bank risk derailing the Gaza ceasefire and the 20-point plan that bears President Trump's name. Even Ambassador Huckabee, who proudly calls this land Judea and Samaria, has also highlighted settler violence, real, actual settler violence following attacks in Taybeh. My question, I'll start with you, Mr. Klein. Why is it— can you explain your disagreement with President Trump's firm opposition to unilateral Israeli annexation of the West bank?

Mr. Morton KleinSPEAKER_05

The 60% of the territory that is not under Israel's administrative control contains almost no Arabs. And the thought of establishing yet another terrorist state is just—

Rep. Brad Schneider (D-IL)SPEAKER_12

We can agree we will not and must not allow the establishment of a terrorist state. Mr. Kontorovich, why do you disagree with President Trump's position, Vice President Vance's, Ambassador Huckabee's position opposing unilateral annexation?

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

Yeah, so I don't think the position's been accurately characterized. Nobody in Israel is talking about annexing the West Bank. There have been proposals to extend Israeli civil law to those areas where Jewish communities are, in other words, to incorporate under Israeli law parts of Judea and Samaria. President Trump's plan is consistent with his 2020 Vision for Peace, where Israel would in fact expand Israeli civil jurisdiction specifically to those areas, and it seems his comments were simply a reaffirmation of that. That's how I understand

Rep. Brad Schneider (D-IL)SPEAKER_12

it. I, to be fair, I think his comments were clear. There will not be annexation was, I believe, of the

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

West Bank.

Rep. Brad Schneider (D-IL)SPEAKER_12

Thank you. Dr. Alterman, let me turn to you. As we're looking to the prospects for the future, the Abraham Accords, which were signed in 2020—I was privileged to be on the White House lawn for that signing—faced a severe test in the war over the last two years. But it survived that test. It upheld the test. The relations remain, and the possibility remains for the future. In the last 30 seconds, can you touch on why it's so important to preserve the path to peace and the opening that the Abraham Accords provided?

Dr. Jon AltermanSPEAKER_06

I think for real security reasons, economic reasons, psychic reasons, an Israel that is genuinely embedded in its region is an Israel that is profoundly more secure, more prosperous, and where Jews and Arabs alike can live side by side in peace and security.

Rep. Brad Schneider (D-IL)SPEAKER_12

Thank you. And just in closing, if you'll indulge me, Chairman, Abraham Accords are opening a new possibility to the entire region, but it is beyond the region. We can look at the India-Middle East corridors that are providing prospects for a broader region from India through the Middle East onto Europe. We need to hold on to those possibilities, and we need to ensure this moment that is a historical moment, not of 100 years, but I would argue of history, to find a path to peace has to be reserved. And we have to work together to keep that open and move down that path. I yield back.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

I now recognize Representative Kean for 5 minutes.

Rep. Thomas Kean (R-NJ)SPEAKER_07

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today. America's partnership with Israel is of critical importance. I appreciate our witnesses taking the time to discuss the current situation in the region. Professor Kontorovich, as the peace process continues to unfold, the international community must remain vigilant to ensure the full implementation of this peace plan. How does the United States work with the Arab partners to more effectively press the Palestinian Authority to advance reforms to counter terrorist threats?

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

Nobody can force the Palestinian Authority to do anything other than to be who they're not. Unless they have a fundamental change of conviction, it's going to be impossible for them to reform. And I want to say the Palestinian Authority has always had the position that any state that they want should begin free of any Jews. That's a very fundamental position. That's a position completely at odds with the idea of this is a land that belongs to everyone. So until they download a different ideology, I think it's going to be very hard for them to move forward. And the pressure really needs to be on the ideology and the belief system that leads them to act. They didn't accidentally adopt pay for slay. It wasn't a mistake. It was a consequence of deeply held beliefs. And if they still hold those beliefs, they will continue to try to act on

Rep. Thomas Kean (R-NJ)SPEAKER_07

Professor, the partnership between the U.S., Israel, Greece, and the Republic of Cyprus, sometimes referred to as the 3+1 partnership, offers a strategic opportunity to counter terrorism in the Eastern Mediterranean. As the peace plan moves forward, how can the United States and Israel leverage the 3+1 partnership to support Israel and to promote peace in Judea, Samaria, and across the Middle East?

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

So I think you're absolutely right that we see now a fundamentally different situation in the Eastern Mediterranean from what anyone could have imagined. Israel is now exporting gas through Cyprus, and the partnership with Greece and Cyprus is crucial. And I think it's important that they, not just other countries in the Eastern Mediterranean that are very active and vocal, play a crucial role in ensuring security in the area.

Rep. Thomas Kean (R-NJ)SPEAKER_07

Thank you. Mr. Klein, what steps can Congress take to promote strategic partnerships in the Middle East that bring lasting peace to Israel?

Mr. Morton KleinSPEAKER_05

Well, first of all, we should make it clear that there'll be no funds coming to the Palestinian Authority until they begin to do what happened in 1945 after World War II, where we denazified the Nazi regime. We have to denazify the Palestinian Authority. We should start with America demanding that the Fatah Charter, not the PLO Charter, the ruling party charter, which states, quote, we oppose any political solution offered as an alternative to demolishing the Zionist occupation in Palestine and the eradication of the Zionist economic, political, military, and cultural existence. The first thing Congress should do is demand that that Fatah Charter be publicly changed, and, of course, to stop naming schools, streets, and sports teams after Jew-killers and Christian-killers. That's what Congress should be doing. We should be talking about how this regime does not support the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. That's why, when they were offered everything, they said no. Congress must be talking about that and start criticizing this regime. I don't hear it from Congress, and I'd like them to really start.

Rep. Thomas Kean (R-NJ)SPEAKER_07

Professor Kontorovich, your insights in that regard?

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

I think I will— I don't have much to add on that one. Okay,

Rep. Thomas Kean (R-NJ)SPEAKER_07

Thank you. So, Professor, can you describe how the United States and Israel are working together with allies in the region to implement the peace plan that's been agreed to by all parties?

Eugene KontorovichSPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. The comprehensive plan for peace is a fundamental breakthrough. It has seen the return of all the living hostages. It has seen a massive reduction in hostilities. At the same time, Hamas is still there, and it's important to just start reading the plan from the beginning. And point one is Gaza is going to be a deradicalized, terror-free zone, for the benefit of the people who live in Gaza. And the demilitarization of Hamas needs to needs to happen. It's not something that could be deferred. It's perhaps the hardest part, but Gaza will not succeed if terror groups hold arms and weapons, and that is the fundamental essence of the plan, and no one can be distracted from that.

Rep. Thomas Kean (R-NJ)SPEAKER_07

Thank you to all of our witnesses for appearing here today. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

Thank you, Representative Kean. I now recognize Representative Fine for 5 minutes.

Rep. Randy Fine (R-FL)SPEAKER_11

Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for letting me waive on today for this important subject. I'd like to perhaps give my perspective on all of this, because I think it's important, and maybe I'll have a couple questions. In 1948, two states were created as the British left that part of the world. There was an Arab state in Jordan, and there was a Jewish state in Israel. But the Arabs could not be content with those two states. They decided they wanted to have one, and a war broke out, a war that has gone in starts and stops ever since. Now, rather than call themselves Jordanians, they invented a new name, the name of Palestinians, to try to imply a third state should be created. And in 1967, that war that started in 1948 continued, and Israel won territory back from the Jordanians. Now, in the United States, when we fought wars and we have won territory, we generally keep it. And that's typically the way the world works. But somehow, when it comes to Israel and it comes to the Jews, when they win a war that they don't start, somehow it is they are supposed to give back the land that they have thus won. But nonetheless, Israel has gone along with this fiction and tried to create not a second state, but a third state. It was tried in 2005 in Gaza, when not only did Israel make Gaza judenrein, they not only removed every living Jew from Gaza, they dug up dead Jews to take them away. And they said, Here you go, Gaza. Enjoy your border with Egypt. Enjoy your access to the ocean. Go live long, prosper. Turn yourself into a Dubai or UAE. And we saw how that worked out. Water pipes, instead of being used to make water, were turned into rockets. Concrete, instead of being used to create schools, were turned into tunnels. So despite the fact there effectively was a third state, the state of Gaza, we saw how that turned out. And so now we're faced with what do we do in Judea and Samaria, a place I would note in Judea was the first capital of Israel in Shiloh, when Moses—well, Moses didn't make it across—when everybody else made it across, that's where they ended up. And again, in Hebron, where the most important people in the Jewish faith are buried. This is where the Jewish people come from. But somehow, what do we do with this area now? And so I think about the the segregation that I saw the first time I went to Judea and Samaria, and I'd like to read you from a sign. We hear about the apartheid state of Israel, and it is partly true. There is apartheid in Israel. I want to tell you, as I was driving through as I was driving through Judea and Samaria, a sign that I saw—I can't find it real quick, but it basically said, in this area, Jews may not enter. This is a part of the West Bank, Judea and Samaria, whatever you want to call it, and the sign literally says in English, in Hebrew, and in Arabic, Jews may not go here. I'm not aware of anywhere that is controlled by Israel where they say Arabs cannot go, where they say Christians cannot go. So my question, I guess, to you, Mr. Klein, is when you are dealing with a group of people who continually call for the destruction of the State of Israel, who who are okay with signs that say Jews may not enter these areas, we want to be free of Jews, how do you make peace with that? How do you create a long-term solution with that? Or is there another way that we have to go?

Mr. Morton KleinSPEAKER_05

Of course, the reason Jews are not permitted to go there is because there's a huge likelihood that they'll be murdered by Arabs who live there. Arabs can walk anywhere they want. There's no problem, no danger. I'll say something that really the president of Egypt first said, el-Sisi. He said there needs to be a reformation of Islam, a reformation of Islam which accepts Israel as a Jewish state, which no longer promotes violence and terrorism, which so many of the imams promote, and nobody wants to talk about. They're afraid of being called Islamophobic.

Rep. Brad Schneider (D-IL)SPEAKER_12

I'm not afraid of that.

Mr. Morton KleinSPEAKER_05

And there has to be as President Trump demanded, a reformation of the Palestinian Authority. And we should be demanding now, not say now, I hear rumors that they're going to wait two years for them to disarm. They have to disarm right now, Hamas. They have to know they're going to get nothing unless they start transforming their ways. There has to be a reformation really of Islam.

Rep. Randy Fine (R-FL)SPEAKER_11

And as my time comes to an end, I would simply say this. I don't know how you make peace With those who seek your destruction, I think you destroy them first. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.

Chairman Michael Lawler (R-NY)SPEAKER_08

thank the witnesses. I do want to recognize two distinguished members from Israel that are here, from Judea and Samaria, Governor Yossi Dagan and Governor Israel Ganz. Thank you both for being here today. I want to thank all of our witnesses. The ranking member does not want to proceed with a second round of questioning, so we will adjourn the hearing. But I want to thank all of you for your valuable testimony. The members of the subcommittee may have some additional questions for the witness, and we will ask you to respond to these in writing pursuant to committee rules. All members may have five days to submit statements, questions, and extraneous materials for the record, subject to the length limitations. Without objection, the committee stands adjourned.