Part 1: Consequences of Failure: How Biden’s Policies Fueled the Border Crisis.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

The Committee on Homeland Security, Subcommittee on Border Security and Enforcement, will come to order. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare the committee in recess at any point. The purpose of this hearing is to examine the actions that gave rise to the historic border crisis we witnessed over the last four years. And more importantly, this hearing will enable Congress to explore potential legislative solutions to ensure that the United States does not endure another such crisis. I now recognize myself for an opening statement. Good morning and welcome to the Subcommittee on Border Security and Enforcement hearing on how the Biden-Harris administration's failed border policies fueled a historic crisis at our southwest border, which the Trump administration is now addressing with bold, long-awaited action. First, I want to say it is an honor to serve as chairman of this subcommittee, and I look forward to working with my colleagues on both sides of the aisle, especially with the ranking member, the gentleman from the great state of California, Representative Correa, as we seek to address the critical challenges facing our nation's border security. Just over four years ago, on January 20th, 2021, President Biden was sworn into office, and on that very same day, with the stroke of a pen, he issued executive orders dismantling years of robust border security measures implemented by the first Trump administration. The results can only be described as a colossal failure. We have often heard the phrase, those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it. So to be clear, this hearing is not about looking back just for the sake of looking back, but instead is about learning from past failures so that Congress can work together to pass meaningful and lasting solutions to secure our border. The policies we put in place today will shape the future and ensure the failures of the past will never be repeated. Over the course of four years, the Biden-Harris administration introduced sweeping policy changes that prioritized rapid processing and release over enforcement, thereby dismantling border security policies meant to deter illegal immigrants— excuse me, meant to deter illegal immigration and protect Americans from foreign threats abroad. The consequences were devastating, as we saw record levels of illegal immigration, a surge in crime committed by transnational criminal organizations, and a weakening of national security. The administration also ended key deterrent measures, such as Remain in Mexico and safe third country asylum agreements. It expanded the CBP One app and created mass parole programs to facilitate the illegal entry of inadmissible aliens into the United States. As a result, every state in America has now become a border state. Violent criminal gangs infiltrated American communities and carried out heinous crimes, crimes such as murder, assault, robbery, and rape, these crimes which jeopardize the safety of all American citizens. When President Trump took office in January, he and his administration wasted no time in reversing the failed policies of the Biden-Harris administration. His administration immediately declared a national emergency at the southwest border and took aggressive actions, such as deploying troops to assist and support DHS to regain operational control. The president also resumed border wall construction, ended Biden-era mass parole programs, and terminated the failed catch-and-release policy. The results were seen almost immediately. By the end of February, Customs and Border Protection data revealed record-low numbers of apprehension at the southwest border. Illegal entries between ports of entry plummeted 94% compared to February of 2024. Meanwhile, at the same time, Immigration and Customs Enforcement ramped up its enforcement efforts and increased arrests of public safety threats by 627%. I would like to close with a quote from one of our witnesses: "The bottom line is this did not have to happen, and we need to prevent it from happening again." We must do all we can to learn from the past, to protect the safety and security of all American people, and to ensure that the failures of the past will not be repeated. This time, I would now recognize the ranking member for the Subcommittee on Border Security and Enforcement, the gentleman from California, Mr. Correa, for his opening statement.

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

Thank you, Chairman Guest, and I concur with you. Thank you for being chair of this committee. I look forward to working with you on border security. Border security, in my opinion, it's not just border security; it's national security. And this is not an issue of Democrats or Republicans, but rather it's an issue that addresses all taxpayers, all citizens in this great nation. Today is our first subcommittee hearing, 119th Congress. This topic selected by you, Mr. Chairman, we're looking at the past. Yet I'd like to look to the future and what the challenges are for us at the border in this nation. We're not looking at conducting oversight and how the Trump administration is ripping away legal statuses, legal rights, work permits from immigrants lawfully within this country, ending parole for Ukrainian war refugees or Venezuelans or Cubans, in addition to ending status for Afghan refugees who fought alongside American troops in Afghanistan. We have to keep our moral obligation to those that have fought next to our American troops, for those that had the back of our American troops overseas. You don't want to talk about ICE agents questioning and arresting American citizens, US citizens, Mr. Chairman, or efforts to deport US veterans, immigrant veterans that have been essentially fighting for this country, or US citizen children with brain cancer. We need to address these issues, Mr. Chairman. I recently met with frontline CBP officers who expressed frustration with this new administration and how they're addressing efficiency initiatives. Yet today, we won't be discussing those issues. Instead, we're looking at the past. But let's be clear: the Biden administration left President Trump with declining border crossing, record number of fentanyl seizures, despite my colleagues not wanting to admit it, and sadly for me, I hate to admit it, a higher daily rate of deportations than we've seen in a very long time. When President Trump first left office, unauthorized border crossings were at a rise, gotaways were on the rise, and synthetic opioid deaths were also on the rise. In fact, in those days, they were already calling it a crisis, and that was in President Trump's first watch. Now that he's back in office, I was hoping, Mr. Chairman, that we focus on oversight of what's happening now at the border. Yet it's hard to fix things when the administration, today's administration, refuses to tell our staff what's happening at the border. And I hope we'll have the administration here to answer some questions as we begin to address and continue to address national security. Mr. Chair, President Biden is gone, and let's focus today on the nuts and bolts of border security, for example, fixing severe staffing shortages at our ports of entry, stopping cartels from getting American-made weapons. Those are the issues we need to focus on. Yet today, the new administration is doubling down on cutting the federal workforce and gutting DHS in the name of efficiency and cost savings. Yet we're looking— completely overlooking the fact that Secretary Noem just spent $200 million, $200 million on TV ads praising the new president. We're also overlooking the fact that the administration spent $16 million to fly 300 detained immigrants to Guantanamo Bay in Cuba just to send them back to the United States. And it's also my understanding that this new administration also directed our soldiers to construct tents and hold detained immigrants in Guantanamo at a cost of $3 million. New tents in Guantanamo for $3 million, but they weren't even built to DHS standards, so they were not even used. How's that for cost savings, Mr. Chairman? Another example: at one facility in Texas, we're spending thousands of dollars to detain a working family and their 6- and 8-year-old children. And I guess this is what America— safer America looks like today. Let's not forget, with all the law enforcement agents like DEA, FBI, ATF, they're being forced to become deportation officers away from their priority investigations of drug cartels, money laundering, child sex trafficking. Sadly, some of these cases may be going unsolved and will become cold cases. This administration's push to inflate ICE arrests and deportations, DHS ended up rounding up Venezuelan-American families whose citizen children were recovering from brain cancer. That's right. A 10-year-old American with brain cancer was deported by this administration. Again, an American citizen, 10 years old. And by the way, parents had no criminal record and had been here for quite some time. Again, is this what makes America look safer or America safe again? Mr. Chairman, I look forward to working with you on future hearings to focus on what makes our border stronger, safer, what keeps our neighborhoods safe, what keeps fentanyl, other narcotics off our streets, as well as bad people from entering this country, and, of course, while improving international trade that is good for America. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for holding this hearing, and with that, I yield.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Thank you, Mr. Correa. At this time, I would now recognize the ranking member for the entire committee, the gentleman from Mississippi, Mr. Thompson, for his opening statement.

Full Committee Ranking Member Bennie Thompson (D-MS)SPEAKER_00

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And I look forward to working with you as another Mississippian on this committee. I welcome our panel of witnesses and look forward to their testimony also today. But more than two months into the Trump administration, Americans want to know why administration officials aren't here to answer the questions. Why haven't Republicans held a single hearing with administration witnesses this whole Congress? Why don't Trump administration officials answer to this committee for their immigration policies? And are they afraid of answering our questions about why they've rounded up and detained U.S. citizens, even deported U.S. citizens with no due process? And you have already heard about the 10-year-old American girl who was deported battling brain cancer. Don't they want to explain why they've disappeared people with no criminal record or evidence of wrongdoing from this country without so much as a hearing, in defiance of a federal judge's order, or why they have pulled law enforcement off cases targeting child abusers, traffickers, and smugglers to carry out immigration raids against people with no criminal history? And that's just what we know from the media reports. We've received next to no information from DHS on what's happening despite our inquiries. Administration officials want to go on Fox News and pose for photo ops, but they don't want to be held accountable by Congress. And congressional Republicans are complicit in helping them evade oversight. Today, my Republican colleagues want to talk about the Biden administration yet again, rather than the bad policies and abuses of the Trump administration. I guess it's to be expected. I understand many of my Republican colleagues are hiding from their own constituents, having been directed by their leadership not to hold town halls or to hear from constituents who are upset at Trump's policies. We should be focusing on the issues affecting our communities today. This administration, with the help of unelected billionaire Elon Musk, is ignoring laws passed by Congress. They are making Americans less safe while increasing prices for everyday goods. This committee should be providing oversight on the Trump administration as they sentence people with no criminal record to hard labor in a notorious prison in El Salvador. This committee should be examining how ordering thousands of special agents to assist ICE with immigration enforcement hurts the government's ability to conduct criminal investigation into child exploitation, human trafficking, drug smuggling, arms smuggling, and tax fraud. Or worse yet, to assign FBI agents to investigate Tesla damage as an act of domestic terrorism. President Trump has even suggested convicted criminals of these crimes, including U.S. citizens, should be sent to the notorious mega-prison in El Salvador, the very same place he is disappearing migrants under the Alien Enemies Act. It doesn't make us safer when the administration pauses serious criminal investigation so that special agents can help ICE arrest people in communities who pose no harm. This committee should be conducting oversight of the Trump administration squandering millions in taxpayers' money to house migrants in inhumane conditions in Guantanamo. Trump said that the worst of the worst would be held there, but many of the detainees had no criminal records at all. One migrant sent there was riding his bike on the wrong side of the road. That certainly doesn't sound like the worst of the worst. We've also heard of U.S. citizens being detained and questioned by ICE. CBP has detained and effectively deported U.S. citizens. That's not who we are as people. There are real threats to this country that we need to focus on. While the Trump administration is fixated on creating sound bites and photo ops, Democrats will remain focused on doing what's best for the American people. The Trump administration should be here to answer our questions. I thank the witnesses for being here today, and I yield back.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Thank you, Chairman Thompson, or Ranking Member Thompson, for that opening statement. Other members of the committee are reminded that opening statements may be submitted for the record. I am pleased to welcome our distinguished panel of witnesses, and I ask that our witnesses please raise their right hand and please rise. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the Committee on Homeland Security of the United States House of Representatives will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? I let the record reflect that the witnesses have answered in the affirmative. Thank you, and you may be seated. I would now like to formally introduce our witnesses. First, I would like to start with Ms. Lora Ries. She is the director of the Border Security and Immigration Center at the Heritage Foundation. She has nearly 30 years experience in the immigration and homeland security arena. She twice worked at the Department of Homeland Security on management and immigration policy and operations issues, most recently as the acting deputy chief of staff. Previously, she worked in the legislative branch as counsel for the United States House of Representatives Judiciary Committee Subcommittee on Immigration and Claims. Our second witness is Mr. Ammon Blair. He is a senior fellow at the Texas Public Policy Foundation Secure and Sovereign Texas Initiative. Blair has over 10 years of experience as a U.S. Border Patrol agent, serving in the Rio Grande Valley sector. He is also a 20-plus-year US Army veteran, serving both as an enlisted soldier and commissioned officer in various leadership and staff roles, including as an infantry platoon leader on Operation Lone Star. Our third witness is Mr. Jon Anfinsen. He serves as the executive vice president of the National Border Patrol Council, the labor union representing over 16,000 Border Patrol agents and support staff. In addition to his national role, he is the president of the local chapter, which covers the Del Rio, Texas, area. He has been assigned as a Border Patrol agent for over 18 years. Throughout his career, he has been assigned to the Del Rio sector in Texas, where he has served in various capacities, including several years in the prosecution unit and 2 years as a liaison to the U.S. Attorney's Office in Del Rio. Our fourth witness is Mr. Aaron Reichlin-Melnick. He is currently a senior fellow at the American Immigration Council. He previously served as policy director and senior policy counsel for the organization. Prior to the American Immigration Council, he was a staff attorney in the immigration law unit for the Legal Aid Society of New York City. I would like to personally thank all of our witnesses for being here today. The witnesses' full statements will appear for the record. I now recognize Ms. Ries for 5 minutes to summarize her opening statement.

Lora RiesSPEAKER_09

Good morning, Chairman Guest, Ranking Members Thompson and Correa, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. The views I express in this testimony are my own and do not represent any official position of The Heritage Foundation. When trying to solve the mass illegal immigration that this country experienced the past 4 years, it is important to ask, how did we get here, to avoid repeating it in the future. The last administration used a number of policy tools that fueled the border crisis and facilitated mass illegal immigration to the US. In so doing, the Biden administration gave aliens coming illegally here the five things that they want. When coming to the US, illegal aliens generally want to enter our country, remain here, work here, send money home, and bring or have family here. Policies that permit those five things generate and facilitate more illegal immigration, whereas policies that prevent those five things prevent illegal immigration. Here are some examples from the last administration. For entry, the Biden administration encouraged millions to come and apply for asylum, going back to a 2020 presidential primary debate when Joe Biden encouraged aliens to, quote, "immediately surge the border," unquote, and claim asylum. During the past 4 years, the left and media referred to all coming here illegally as, quote, "asylum seekers," unquote, to both encourage people to apply for the benefit and to generate American empathy for the masses who were coming here. The reality was, before the Biden administration, the vast majority of asylum applicants were denied asylum because they were not eligible. Knowing many were coming here for economic reasons, not because they were fleeing persecution, meant the administration was encouraging asylum fraud. Then Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas also encouraged unaccompanied alien children border crossings by saying publicly multiple times, if you come as an unaccompanied child, you will not to be turned back. The result? U.S. Customs and Border Protection encountered a historic 550,000 unaccompanied children during the last 4 years. Biden's Department of Health and Human Services, which is responsible for providing shelter for unaccompanied children, turned them over to unvetted sponsors. Unsurprisingly, children ended up in sex trafficking, child labor, and HHS lost track of at least 300,000 of them. The Biden administration also paid tens of billions of dollars to nongovernmental organizations or NGOs to build an infrastructure for mass migration from as far south as at least Panama to and throughout the U.S. These NGOs arranged transportation, shelter, healthcare, documentation, legal services, and other, quote, "wraparound services" for the aliens. The money sent to these NGOs went out through DHS, the State Department, HHS, USAID, the Justice Department, and more. We, the U.S. taxpayers, were paying for our own national destruction. To bring in additional tens of thousands of inadmissible aliens each month, Secretary Mayorkas went around the legal visa process, around the U.S. Refugee Admissions Program, and instead issued mass parole based mostly on nationality and in violation of the immigration statute. To allow the masses of aliens to remain in the U.S., the Biden administration severely restricted immigration enforcement, gave billions of dollars to sanctuary jurisdictions in conjunction with the NGOs to shield inadmissible aliens and provide them benefits. The administration also increased and extended numerous designations of Temporary Protected Status, used prosecutorial discretion to not seek aliens' removals, and administratively closed other removal cases, thereby giving deportable aliens more time here until they could become eligible for another immigration benefit. As for working in the U.S., Secretary Mayorkas issued employment authorization documents as a default. If the underlying immigration benefit, like merely filing an asylum application, already provided work authorization, Secretary Mayorkas accelerated it. If Congress never authorized work for an immigration benefit like parole, Mayorkas issued work cards anyway. The Biden administration abused our immigration system, resulting in a historic 11 million CBP encounters in just 4 years. These bad policies brought unsustainable numbers of people to our communities, along with national insecurity, fentanyl, violent gang members, and other issues. With the new Trump administration, we have already seen border numbers plummet because President Trump immediately put policies into place that prevent illegal entry and other benefits for inadmissible and deportable aliens. This concludes my testimony, and I look forward to your questions. Thank you.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Thank you, Ms. Ries. I now recognize Mr. Blair for 5 minutes to summarize his opening statement.

Ammon S. BlairSPEAKER_12

Chairman Guest, Ranking Member Correa, and distinguished members of the subcommittee, good morning, and thank you for inviting me to testify before you. Over the last 4 years, the United States has endured a deliberately orchestrated invasion through weaponized mass migration. Millions of illegal aliens from over 170 countries have been funneled, often with cartel facilitation, into Texas and other border states, overwhelming state and local resources. This is not just a border crisis. It is a full-spectrum national security failure manufactured by the Biden administration through the active subversion of U.S. immigration law, the construction of an illegal parallel immigration regime, and the forcible repurposing of our homeland security apparatus to serve foreign nationals rather than American people. Federal agencies once tasked with homeland security were repurposed into logistical arms for mass migration, tasked with processing, migrant care, and releasing millions of unvetted foreign nationals into U.S. communities. This myopic focus on the importation of foreign nationals left us blind to the current state of Mexico and the national security threats emanating from the border. Mexico is not a distant concern. It is the most strategically consequential nation to U.S. homeland security, and yet it remains one of the most underestimated and politically ignored threats in the American national security apparatus. While our defense establishment focused on the borders and sovereignty of foreign nations across— excuse me— across the globe, Mexico devolved into a narco-state on our doorstep, exporting violence, criminal governance, and destabilization directly into U.S. territory. Yet, despite the clear and expanding threat, the Biden administration ignored Mexico as a national security priority, treating the border crisis as a humanitarian management challenge rather than the gray zone conflict it has become. This deliberate misframing paralyzed the federal response and allowed Mexico to become a sanctuary state for enemies of the United States. Mexico today is more accurately described as a state where federal, state, and local governance has collapsed in key regions and foreign terrorist organizations dominate political and economic life, much like Afghanistan. These cartels function as hybrid threats. Closely resembling their Middle Eastern counterparts, they employ terror as a political weapon, control territory, corrupt or co-opt institutions, and use violence strategically to shape governance outcomes. Their war is not against a rival state. It is against the very concept of law, sovereignty, and national borders. Therefore, the security environment along the U.S.-Mexico border cannot be understood through the outdated framework of criminality alone. What exists is an intolerable strategic alliance between the Mexican state at the national and subnational level and the cartels, a relationship that has evolved into a coordinated, aligned partnership with direct consequences for U.S. national security. The Biden administration's failure to acknowledge or confront Mexico's authoritarian backsliding effectively greenlit a regime that tolerates narcoterrorism as a cost of just doing business. By continuing to treat Mexico as a diplomatic peer rather than a strategic liability, the Biden administration insulated a failing state from accountability while exposing American communities to escalating violence. Now, while Mexico is engaged in a non-international armed conflict where cartels openly battle for the state, for control of territory and population, the spillover into the United States has taken a far more insidious form. Cartels do not seek to provoke a direct armed response from the U.S. military or federal government, nor does the Mexican state want to risk exposure as a complicit or tacitly cooperative actor. Instead, Mexican cartels have adapted their methods to achieve the same objective: territorial control through covert gray zone tactics that replicate their domination of Mexican society within U.S. border communities. In this model, operational control does not require military confrontation. It is secured through the systematic erosion of institutional integrity and the strategic compromise of U.S. governance at every level. Cartels act as de facto foreign intelligence services, targeting federal, state, and local law enforcement, National Guard elements, and the legal system itself. Corruption, bribery, coercion, and espionage are tools of influence, not just within enforcement ranks, but among prosecutors, judges, and elected officials. A recent study found that the Mexican cartels are now the fifth largest employer in Mexico. That same model of parallel governance and economic capture is being exported across the border. In rural Texas border counties, cartel activity is so deeply woven into daily life that the state is rapidly losing functional sovereignty in these zones without a single shot being fired. The communities along our southern border are witnessing in real time their subordination, not just to the surge of illegal aliens or the ambitions of a progressive elite, but to the strategic designs of foreign nations, foreign terrorist organizations, and their vast transnational criminal threats. This is no longer a border issue. It is a national one.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Thank you, Mr. Blair. I now recognize Mr. Anfinsen for 5 minutes to summarize his opening statement.

Jon AnfinsenSPEAKER_06

Chairman Guest, Ranking Member Correa, Ranking Member Thompson, distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to testify here today. President Biden's executive actions and inactions during his term resulted in an unprecedented security and humanitarian crisis along our borders. It didn't have to be this way, and we have to do whatever we can to prevent it from happening again. Not only was the entire world encouraged to essentially illegally cross our borders, primarily with the goal of abusing the asylum system, but it caused our agents to be sidelined, left unable to do their jobs. Our job shifted from that of law enforcement to that of processing asylum claims, sitting behind computers on a virtual assembly line while illegal aliens disappeared into the country because we weren't there to do it. And a lot of these folks were only discovered later after being arrested for all sorts of crimes, some of them minor and some of them horrific. To put this in context, during the 12 years of Presidents Obama and Trump, there were approximately 1.6 million gotaways across all 12 years. During President Biden's 4 years, there were over 2 million. Now, this surge overwhelmed our resources, and it led to tragic consequences. During President Biden's tenure, we saw an average of 690 deaths at the border per year, with FY '22 being the worst, and there were over 900 deaths of people trying to cross the border. You compare that to an average of 370 deaths per year under President Obama and 280 under President Trump. And now all of these deaths are unfortunate, but it gives you an idea of how out-of-control things were or became over the past 4 years. I remember one incident in particular in Eagle Pass, Texas, in August 2022, where a toddler and an infant—they were siblings—had gone under the water when a family crossed the river. Agents on the boat patrol unit pulled the siblings out of the water. They performed CPR on them, doing whatever they could to save them. The toddler passed away right there at the scene, and the infant was taken to the hospital and died a few days later. The agents did their best to save them, and then they spent the rest of the day dealing with questions from CBP's Office of Professional Responsibility, with questions like: How long did you do CPR? Who told you to stop CPR? Did you use an AED? Among others. And they ask this because Congress requires OPR to investigate in-custody deaths and deaths of people that we encounter so that they can provide a report to Congress within 72 hours. So that means agents who have dealt with traumatic events have to relive those events over and over right away so that OPR can figure out if they even need to report this death to Congress. The month after these two siblings drowned, eight people died in one drowning incident just upriver as they—and they were swept away. And this just kept happening over and over. And the crisis strained local resources as well. With places like Maverick County, Texas, one of the areas that I cover, they had to bring in refrigerator trucks to store the unidentified bodies of people who died trying to cross the border. Our agents, including those who are trained as EMTs in the field, were often diverted from those field operations to process asylum seekers, which left non-EMT agents to do their best to handle rescue and recovery efforts. And this loss of life has taken a significant toll on our agents' mental health and morale. Since FY 2015, CBP has had 101 employee suicides, and in 2022, at what is probably the peak of the border crisis, there was a 50% increase in employee suicides compared to the previous 7-year average. And while the reasons for committing suicide are typically unknown, we do know that having to deal with objectively terrible and sad things at work day in and day out without relief does nothing to help anyone's mental health. Adding to these challenges, our agents faced unprecedented attacks and demonization. A prime example was the mischaracterization of an incident involving our Horse Patrol unit in Del Rio, Texas, during the Haitian migrant crisis in September 2021. There were 30,000 or so Haitians that crossed the border illegally, and these Horse Patrol agents were accused of using whips on some of them, and they were called racists. President Biden promised the agents would, quote, pay for what they supposedly did. And even though they were ultimately cleared of misconduct allegations, this media frenzy and the administration's premature condemnation severely impacted the agents involved and the entire agency. And these factors and others have made it difficult to recruit and retain agents. We currently have about 19,500 Border Patrol agents. 2,500 of them could retire today. Another 4,000 become eligible within the next 4 years. And if all of that weren't enough, some of our basic resources are also strained. As of the end of FY '24, over 50% of our vehicle fleet is also retirement eligible. It takes an average of 403 days for a new vehicle to be ordered and delivered, leading to increased costs, and on and on. President Trump has some ideas for this manpower issue by proposing to increase Border Patrol pay, offer retention bonuses, add recruitment bonuses to bring in an additional 10,000 agents. We can only hope that there are enough people who still want to do this job. The bottom line is that the border crisis under the Biden administration severely impacted our ability to secure the border and strained our workforce to the breaking point. Thank you for your time. I look forward to your questions.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Thank you, Mr. Anfinsen. I now recognize Mr. Reichlin-Melnick for 5 minutes to summarize his opening statement.

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Chairman Guest, Ranking Member Correa, and distinguished members of the subcommittee. My name is Aaron Reichlin-Melnick, and I am senior fellow at the American Immigration Council, a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization which envisions a nation where immigrants are embraced, American communities are enriched, and justice prevails for all. There is no doubt that President Biden's border record at the border was mixed. As we have argued, Biden made measurable progress at restoring the asylum system while failing to lead on a national level to respond to the unprecedented rise in migration. True, the administration eventually settled on a strategy in 2024 that produced results, including a drop in border apprehensions of 80%. But the legality and long-term viability of this strategy was questionable, and it was ultimately too little, too late. However, Joe Biden is no longer president. And while President Biden ordered DHS to focus on immigrants who are recent entrants or public safety threats, President Trump is focused on arresting and deporting all removable immigrants, including longtime residents, those with no criminal records, families, children, and undocumented workers. Trump has made immigration enforcement the top priority of federal law enforcement, above fentanyl trafficking, above terrorism, and even above protecting our children from predators. This obsession with draconian immigration enforcement will make us all less safe. If continued over the next 4 years, it may also impoverish us as a climate of fear and large-scale removals cause the economy to shrink and Americans to lose their jobs. Over the last 2 months, the Trump administration has reassigned thousands of federal law enforcement officers away from their normal duties to instead carry out low-level civil immigration enforcement arrests and prosecutions, including against many people with no criminal record. This has diverted resources away from serious public safety threats. According to Reuters, at Homeland Security Investigations, which over the last 2 years reported saving 3,000 children from predators, scores of agents who specialize in child sexual exploitation have been reassigned to immigration enforcement. Rather than protecting kids, these special agents are staking out immigrant workers' homes and taking down license plates. At the Department of Justice, Attorney General Bondi declared on her first day that immigration enforcement is the top priority of the agency, above nearly everything else. Even the FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force has been directed to assist in the execution of President Trump's immigration initiatives. But it doesn't stop there. 25% of the DEA's workforce has been reassigned to immigration enforcement. Rather than tracking down drug traffickers, DEA agents are combing through old files to find cases where prosecutors can add illegal entry or reentry charges years later. At the ATF, a full 80% of agents have been reassigned to immigration. Even the IRS isn't immune, with special agents trained in financial crimes being made to go after random immigrants instead. In a world of limited resources, diverting federal law enforcement to the mass deportation agenda will have an obvious effect. When HSI agents tracking online pedophiles are forced to stake out undocumented workers, our children are not safer. When DEA agents investigating drug rings are told to find immigrant families who missed court dates, our communities are not safer. And when FBI agents tracking terrorists are told to focus on immigration arrests instead, our nation is not safer. These concerns are not hypothetical. In 2018, under the zero-tolerance policy, border prosecutors were ordered to charge all migrants with illegal entry. The result was clear. There was a large drop in drug trafficking cases brought by federal prosecutors, 'cause prosecutors were spending night and day focused on migrant parents instead of going after the drug traffickers. This administration's priorities are backwards. While Trump is spending billions of dollars on detaining ever-greater numbers of immigrants, his administration is slashing services for Americans. Money is pouring into the pockets of private prison companies at the same time as USDA is ending contracts giving children access to fresh local food and Social Security is closing offices nationwide. Rather than a single-minded focus on mass deportation, this administration and Congress should pursue common-sense policies that help American communities. We need a system that can resolve cases quickly while also maintaining fairness, due process, and meaningful accountability for all actors. That includes a path to permanent legal status for undocumented immigrants who have resided in this country for decades without breaking other laws. This would build American prosperity, encourage the rule of law, and break the power of unscrupulous employers who exploit workers. In an option between self-defeating mass deportations and a prosperity-building path to legal status, the choice is clear. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

To all of our witnesses, thank you for summarizing your opening statements. Members will be recognized by order of seniority for their five minutes of questioning. An additional round of questioning may be called after all members have been recognized. I now recognize myself for five minutes of questioning. Ms. Ries, when I grew up, history was one of my favorite subjects in school. I had a teacher in high school who would often use these words: He would say, Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it. And I feel that as we, as a Congress, move forward as a body to try to encapsulate what the Trump administration is doing, that it's important that we also look back. I think you did a great job in your opening statement kind of talking about many of the actions that you described of the prior administration that you said unleashed an open-border agenda. You mentioned the stopping of the construction of the border wall, the ending Remain in Mexico, the mass parole by the use of the CBP One app. You talked about NGOs and how the prior administration built an infrastructure that facilitated illegal immigration. And so, I would ask if just for a moment if you would talk about these policies and the other failed policies of the administration and the impact that it has had on all law-abiding American citizens.

Lora RiesSPEAKER_09

Yes, thank you. I'd say the Biden administration used a few particular tools to carry this out. I talked a little bit about asylum, asylum fraud, encouraging people to come here and apply for asylum, even though we knew that so many people aren't ultimately eligible for it, as well as parole. Parole is something that is in the immigration statute, but pre- the Biden administration, it was very rarely used. And the point of it is if someone doesn't have time to go through the visa process or the refugee program, but need to come here temporarily on a case-by-case basis for urgent humanitarian need or in the significant public interest. The classic example is someone coming for surgery who doesn't have time to get a visa. And for that reason, I believe that is why Congress did not authorize work authorization for parole, and yet Secretary Mayorkas granted work authorization for the parolees. We talked about the use of the NGOs, truly an arm of the government, to carry this out. And DOGE has revealed the billions of dollars that have gone out through various departments to execute this.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Ms. Ries, let me ask you, did the combination of the policies of the Biden administration, did it make America more safe or less safe?

Lora RiesSPEAKER_09

Less safe.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Mr. Anfinsen, I want to ask you a couple questions. First, thank you for your service. I had a chance to visit with you a few minutes before the hearing. You actually shared with me a story that in the sector that you are assigned to, Del Rio, that back in September of 2021, that there were actually on one given day in a single sector, there were 15,000 encounters that day, more than the entire month of February along the entire southwest border. We've seen with the policies implemented by the Trump administration just over 11,000 total encounters on the southwest border. You were telling me that you had 15,000 encounters on a given day just in a single sector along the southwest border. Is that correct?

Jon AnfinsenSPEAKER_06

That's correct. We had what's been deemed the Haitian migrant crisis in Del Rio. Essentially, almost 30,000 people crossed over the span of about a week and a half, and the high-water mark for one day was about 15,000 people below the Del Rio Port of Entry and in the brush to the left and right of it. So it was—we've never seen anything like that before.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Let me ask you about current morale. There was a statement issued in one of the opening statements, and I don't recall by Mr. Correa or Mr. Thompson, that the morale of the Border Patrol agents was low. How would you contrast the morale of the Border Patrol agents today versus the morale under the Biden administration?

Jon AnfinsenSPEAKER_06

Complete 180-degree change. We're able to do our job again. That's the— we want to work with all— there's a lot of people bashing federal employees these days. We want to work. It's a very difficult job and we want to be out there and we're finally able to do it.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

And one final question, and I'll ask each of the witnesses just to answer yes or no because my time is quickly expiring. It's been reported that there are roughly 1.5 million individuals who have final orders of removal that are currently at large within the United States. So that means that they've been through the process, their claims have been denied, and that a magistrate or a judge has issued a final order of removal for those individuals. And so my question is, should we be enforcing those orders of removal? Ms. Ries?

Lora RiesSPEAKER_09

Yes.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Mr. Blair?

Ammon S. BlairSPEAKER_12

Yes, sir.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Mr. Anfinsen?

Jon AnfinsenSPEAKER_06

Yes, sir.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

And Mr. Reichlin-Melnick?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

It depends on the individual circumstances.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

So if a judge orders a person to be removed, we should not enforce the judge's order? Is that your testimony?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Many of those orders were issued in absentia against people who did not receive government notice. In fact, 20% of in absentia orders are later successfully overturned. So I think each individual case is different.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

All right, so I'm going to take that as a no. Well, with that, I will now recognize Mr. Correa for his 5 minutes of questioning.

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do hope we have additional opportunity to delve into these issues. Mr. Anfinsen, I had the opportunity to travel from Texas to California, visit most of the ports of entry and areas between ports of entry, talk to a lot of your agents. Most of the employees right now at the border, green and blue uniforms, came on board after 9/11. So you're right, we've got a massive wave of retirements coming any day now. Low morale, pay. You pay a person at San Ysidro the same that you pay somebody in New Mexico. Mandatory overtime. Do we have mandatory overtime?

Jon AnfinsenSPEAKER_06

That's correct.

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

So you got an agent who's got to go home and take care of the kids, a single parent. What does he say when he's popped with a 16-hour turn to

Jon AnfinsenSPEAKER_06

work? Sorry, at best.

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

How's that help morale?

Jon AnfinsenSPEAKER_06

That's right.

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

Okay, suicides, absolutely. And I hope, Mr. Chairman, moving forward, let's let's look at these issues. That's bread-and-butter stuff. Recruitment, the reason you can't bring in more people is because of the security background check. It's tougher than even the FBI's background check. These are the issues we got to look at that we've been talking about for years. Now, Mr. Blair, you talked about the narcos.

Ammon S. BlairSPEAKER_12

Yes, sir,

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

You did. You're absolutely right. Very powerful. Been to Mexico, people are scared to death to walk on those streets. Who finances those narcos?

Ammon S. BlairSPEAKER_12

They finance themselves through their illicit commodities.

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

The sale of drugs to our taxpayers, our constituents, those are American dollars that are going to Mexico to finance the narcos. Is that correct? Yes or no?

Ammon S. BlairSPEAKER_12

Yes, sir. We are one of their largest— So

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

you're witnessing right now the biggest transfer of wealth in recent history. American consumers financing narcos that are killing people in other countries. Yes. No.

Ammon S. BlairSPEAKER_12

Yes. As well as all the other 65. Thank

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

you very much. Love to talk to you a little bit more, but I got a couple of minutes left. Maybe one of my colleagues here can indulge you a little bit more. But Mr. Reichlin-Melnick, let's talk about that a little bit. Trump administration pulling thousands of agents to the border, pulling FBI, DEA, ATF from investigating child abuses, sex traffickers, gangs, drugs? If you want to go after these issues, wouldn't you go after the pocketbook? Wouldn't you go after and investigate where these dollars are flowing, where they're coming from?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

I think so, yes.

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

So how does this shift in personnel help the situation or not?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

I don't think it does. I think trained law enforcement that are focusing on very serious crimes like child sexual exploitation should stay on the job doing those jobs.

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

If you want to punch a drug cartel, you want to go after their pocketbook, correct? So when you pull somebody from ATF, DEA, FBI from that investigation, what are we doing?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

I don't see how that helps.

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

Let me come back to the issue of deporting individuals that don't have a criminal record. I'm from California. We're land of the nuts and fruits, many say. We're also the fifth largest economy in the world. We're also the biggest ag state in the United States, account for 60% of the nation's venture capital. We have more inventions, Silicon Valley. We've been able to fix our human resource or workforce issues by integrating documented and undocumented workers. Most of our workers in the fields are probably undocumented. Is that a good back for economy for lowering the prices of food?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Yeah, certainly undocumented workers contribute significantly to the United States. Many of them are taxpayers. About half of undocumented immigrants pay taxes as well, putting billions of dollars into— A lot

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

of them pay into the Social Security system, will never see a dime of that system. And Mr. Chairman, I've got half a minute left here, but I'd love to delve with you into these issues. Nobody, nobody wants a murderer or rapist in our neighborhoods, because by the time they're actually reported to the police, they ravage through our ethnic communities first. And we don't want that to happen. At the same time, we recognize the fact that we have a workforce shortage in this country and that we need legal pathways to work in this country. Look forward, Mr. Chairman, to addressing the real issues. And, by the way, we didn't even talk about the fact that a lot of these crossings, illegal crossings, undocumented crossings at the border, are also a result of COVID. That's another issue. Mr. Chairman, thank you for indulging me. And, if I can, before I give you the mic, I'd like to submit for the record—I'd like to ask for unanimous consent to submit an article from Reuters dated March 22nd of this year entitled "Thousands of Agents Diverted to Trump Immigration Crackdown" that describes how special agents from HSI, FBI, ATF have been forced to put their investigations on hold in order to do immigration enforcement. Mr. Chairman,

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Without objection, it will be admitted into the record. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from the great state of Texas, Mr. Gonzales, for 5 minutes.

Rep. Tony Gonzales (R-TX)SPEAKER_04

Thank you, Chairman Guest. Appreciate your leadership on this. Thank you, everybody, for testifying before us. It's good to see you, Jon. I didn't even know you owned a suit. It's great to see you up here and not in the field. I represent two-thirds of the Texas-Mexico border. A lot of the places that people talk about, we live it. Del Rio with the Haitians under the bridge, we lived that. Eagle Pass, thousands of people, we lived that. When they rushed the—when these IAs rushed the bridge in El Paso, also in the district. But I want to start with one thing in particular that I don't think gets enough coverage. And I want to start with Ms. Ries, and this is a very simple question. Where are the children? There are reports of hundreds of thousands of children that are missing regardless of their legal status. Where are the children?

Lora RiesSPEAKER_09

Well, that's a valid question, because 550,000 came in unaccompanied during the last administration and HHS was so overwhelmed, treated them basically like widgets on an assembly line, and turned them over to unvetted sponsors. And so, then HHS lost track of so many of them, and unfortunately, some were subjected to sex trafficking, child labor, and God knows what else. But they need to be found.

Rep. Tony Gonzales (R-TX)SPEAKER_04

I agree with you. And I think this is an area that that the president, working with Congress, we're going to have to work really hard to find these children. No one else is going to advocate for them. I saw during the last administration, as their policies were eroded, where they would, at one time, would vet everyone in the household before they would turn a child over, to now they were just turning children over as quickly as they possibly could just because of the sheer numbers. I think that is an area that we absolutely need to focus on. I'm sure you're going to gain you're going to have that level of support from this committee. My next question is to Mr. Blair. How can President Trump and Congress best tackle rounding up and deporting the hundreds of thousands of convicted criminal illegal aliens loose in our country?

Ammon S. BlairSPEAKER_12

Thank you, sir. That's a great question. The best way to do so is working as a multi-jurisdictional, multi-agency plan through your local, state, and county law enforcement. It's those law enforcement agents or officers that are in the communities. They know the communities. They know the criminality or the criminal elements within their communities. So the only way that President Trump and also Tom Homan are going to be able to go after all those hundreds of thousands that are currently on the non-disclosed docket for ICE that have criminal records is by going through a multi-agency, multi-jurisdictional plan led by the federal government. The federal government is just not big enough. Federal agencies are not large enough. And so they're going to have to go through that all the way down to the local level.

Rep. Tony Gonzales (R-TX)SPEAKER_04

Spot on. I couldn't agree with you more. Last year, I sent a letter to ICE asking how many convicted criminal illegal aliens are in our country. One, I was shocked I got a response back, but even more shocking was the fact that it was 662,000. That is a large number. And to your point, the only way we're going to accomplish this is if we all are in the same boat, paddling in the same direction—local, state, federal all coming together. I just held a roundtable last week in San Antonio with that, with my sheriffs, with my police chiefs, with—we had FBI there, we had HSI, we had DEA. You had all these different partnerships, and you've already seen some of the successes that President Trump has been able to—and his administration has been able to accomplish in Houston and throughout the country. But to your point, I think you're spot on: we have to do more, and the only way we do this is if we all pull our resources together to get these—these—once again, I'm not talking about somebody that is here awaiting their court case. I'm talking someone that's a convicted criminal illegal alien, to the tune of 600,000. My next question is to you, Jon. It's pretty simple. You're on the ground, you're in the field. What is the pulse of the Border Patrol agents on the ground after President Trump has initiated these policy changes?

Jon AnfinsenSPEAKER_06

Well, they're doing the job that they were trained to do. So obviously they're happy about that. There are a lot of different policies that are being challenged in court. So we're day to day, things are changing in terms of what rules are supposed to be followed. So that's been a little confusing. But ultimately, they're glad to be back to work doing the job that we were doing, at least during the first Trump administration. So it's It's completely different than what it was in the last 4 years.

Rep. Tony Gonzales (R-TX)SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, I've been at Since the president has taken office, I've been at the border six different times, various different sectors. I have four different Border Patrol sectors. It is a breath of fresh air on the ground. One thing that I would add, though, I'm seeing a lot of agents, new agents that have been in the force less than 4 years that really don't know what their job is supposed to be. So I think a large part of it is how do we train our agents to get back to doing the jobs that they need to do? Thank you, everybody, again, and thank you, Chairman, for this hearing.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Thank you. I now recognize the gentlelady from Illinois, Ms. Ramirez, for her 5 minutes of questioning.

Rep. Delia Ramirez (D-IL)SPEAKER_07

Thank you, Chairman. We spend a lot of time in this committee—subcommittee. Obviously, it's the Border Subcommittee, but the entire full committee, talking about the border. But I really think that for us to understand the border, we also have to understand history and context, two things incompatible with Trump's administration of authoritarianism, white supremacism, and this white man's good old days. So, I want to spend some time doing a little bit of history here. Let's consider Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, and Venezuela. Why do these countries get humanitarian parole? Because each face a humanitarian crisis, high numbers of asylum-seekers cross the border, fleeing political, social, and economic instability that the US played a role in creating. But last week, the Trump administration announced that individuals from Cuba, from Haiti, from Nicaragua, and Venezuela must leave the United States in the next month, not because the humanitarian crisis has passed, but because this administration is committed to an authoritarian agenda and consequences be damned. So let's clear some things together here. Mr. Reichlin-Melnick, I want to ask you a couple of yes-or-no questions. First, let me start with, were any taxpayer funds used to bring these migrants into the United States?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Absolutely not.

Rep. Delia Ramirez (D-IL)SPEAKER_07

Thank you. Can you explain how many people may lose their legal status under the Trump administration?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

And just the CHNV parole program, which the administration announced would be terminated earlier last week, we're looking at hundreds of thousands of people, and so far with Temporary Protected Status, 800,000 combined with another 300,000 likely in the fall.

Rep. Delia Ramirez (D-IL)SPEAKER_07

And very briefly, what types of jobs are people in the CHNV program and Temporary Protected Status filling in our communities?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

They're filling all kinds of jobs in communities like Springfield, Ohio, where they were helping rebuild the manufacturing base. And in places like Florida and Texas and California, they're working legally, they're filling jobs that are open to any person in the country who is able to work legally. And without them, the economy will suffer.

Rep. Delia Ramirez (D-IL)SPEAKER_07

Thank you for your response. I want to talk about Guantanamo Bay. Mr. Reichlin-Melnick, let's just be clear again. Yes or no, did detaining migrants at Guantanamo Bay improve our border security?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Absolutely not.

Rep. Delia Ramirez (D-IL)SPEAKER_07

And yes or no, to your knowledge, did they send only criminals to Guantanamo?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

No.

Rep. Delia Ramirez (D-IL)SPEAKER_07

Yes or no, does the administration have the ability to hold the, quote, worst of the worst here in the United States?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Absolutely they do.

Rep. Delia Ramirez (D-IL)SPEAKER_07

And yes or no, did they need Guantanamo to achieve that end?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

They did not.

Rep. Delia Ramirez (D-IL)SPEAKER_07

And quickly, what other problems did you see with this administration's use of Guantanamo Bay?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Beyond there was the treatment of people at those facilities, in facilities that clearly did not meet ICE standards, where people were held in solitary confinement, even people, again, with no criminal record. It was also extraordinarily expensive.

Rep. Delia Ramirez (D-IL)SPEAKER_07

So I want to talk now about El Salvador. President Trump recently invoked the Alien Enemies Act. The last time this law was used was during a dark period in American history. Some of us just talked about if we don't know history, we're damned to repeat it again, and it was used to detain more than 100,000 Japanese Americans being in internment camps following the attack on Pearl Harbor. Trump has invoked it to target the Tren de Aragua gang, he says, and recently deported more than 100 individuals they allege are connected to this gang. These individuals were disappeared to a mega prison in El Salvador. Mr. Reichlin-Melnick, can you explain some of the problems with President Trump's use of the Alien Enemies Act?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

The number one problem is the lack of due process. The administration is asserting an unprecedented authority to point at any person and say, You're a member of Tren de Aragua. You don't get any right to say that you're not. We're going to stick you on a plane. We don't even have to tell you first. At a court hearing yesterday, the Department of Justice said people do not even have a right to be told they're going to be subject to this law before they're put on a plane.

Rep. Delia Ramirez (D-IL)SPEAKER_07

That's right. And do we know who some of the individuals sent to El Salvador are?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

We do. And we know that many of them allege that they are not members of the gang, including Andry, a Venezuelan gay barber who is seeking asylum, a makeup artist, who has said repeatedly he has been sent there by mistake.

Rep. Delia Ramirez (D-IL)SPEAKER_07

And has the Trump administration provided any evidence of gang ties?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

None whatsoever.

Rep. Delia Ramirez (D-IL)SPEAKER_07

So, let me ask you this last question: Why should American citizens, permanent residents, law-abiding legal immigrants fear President Trump's invocation of the Alien Enemies Act?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

This country was founded on the rule of law, on the idea that no person could be held to account by the government without an opportunity to understand the charges brought against them and an opportunity to respond. That is not happening here.

Rep. Delia Ramirez (D-IL)SPEAKER_07

That's right. And I will say history does in fact repeat itself, and some of the worst parts of our past started with eroding people's right and making them the enemy. We can't let this administration continue to criminalize immigrants in order to be able to criminalize any dissent, which is exactly why I think Secretary Noem needs to come before this body and answer questions. I demand that, and with that, I yield back.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Thank you. I now recognize the gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Crane, for 5 minutes.

Rep. Elijah Crane (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing today. I want to thank you all for joining us on this important subcommittee hearing. I only have 5 minutes, so I ask you to please keep your answers brief. I also have a series of unanimous consent requests that I'll be entering into the record after my questioning. Mr. Anfinsen, on January 27th, 2024, President Biden said a new broader bill would grant him new emergency authority to shut down the border when it becomes overwhelmed. Additionally, on January 30th, 2024, President Biden said when asked about his actions on the border, I've done all I can do. Give me the Border Patrol. Give me the people who can stop this and make it work right. My question to you, sir: Did President Biden lie to the American people about his actions and authority at the southern border?

Jon AnfinsenSPEAKER_06

He claimed there was nothing else he could do, and then he did more that summer with the executive order. So, uh, clearly he wasn't telling the truth.

Rep. Elijah Crane (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

Thank you. DHS and CBP fall under the executive branch, meaning Biden always had the authority. He chose to operate the border in the way he did. Would you agree with that, sir?

Jon AnfinsenSPEAKER_06

Yes.

Rep. Elijah Crane (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

Mr. Blair, U.S. Customs and Border Protection data released February 18, 2025: According to U.S. Customs and Border Protection, from January 21st through January 31st, 2025, the number of U.S. Border Patrol apprehensions along the southwest border dropped 85% from the same period in 2024. The number of inadmissible aliens encountered by CBP's Office of Field Operations at ports of entry along the southwest border dropped 93% in the 11 days after January 20th compared with the 11 days prior. And the list goes on and on. My question is, and please answer yes or no, sir, would you agree CBP data suggests that President Trump's first 30 days in office was more effective at stopping illegal immigration than 4 years of Joe Biden?

Ammon S. BlairSPEAKER_12

Yes, sir.

Rep. Elijah Crane (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

Thank you. Ms. Ries, my question is briefly explain what liberal states stand to gain from mass illegal immigration and unchecked parole.

Lora RiesSPEAKER_09

Part of its headcount. They're counted in the census even though noncitizens can't vote and are not supposed to vote. And then those numbers are used for districting in Congress. And then in turn, those same numbers are also used for the presidential Electoral College votes.

Rep. Elijah Crane (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

Would you agree, ma'am, that redistricting is a major political outcome for Democrats welcoming migrant caravans into their local communities?

Lora RiesSPEAKER_09

Yes, it gives them more headcount and therefore more districts.

Rep. Elijah Crane (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

Would you agree illegal immigration for redistricting is not what the Founders intended under Article I, Section 2, Clause 1 of the Constitution regarding congressional districting?

Lora RiesSPEAKER_09

I agree.

Rep. Elijah Crane (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

I'd like to play a 20-second recording of a former Homeland Security Committee member. Can we go ahead and play that?

Rep. Yvette Clarke (D-NY)SPEAKER_01

I'm from Brooklyn, New York. We have a diaspora that that can absorb a significant number of these migrants. And that, when I hear colleagues talk about the the doors of the inn being closed, no room in the inn, I'm saying I need more people in my district just for redistricting purposes, and those members could could clearly fit here. I'm from Brooklyn, New York. We have a diaspora that that can absorb a significant number of these migrants. And, when I hear colleagues talk about the the doors of the

Rep. Elijah Crane (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

Thank you. That was Rep. Yvette Clarke, a Democrat from New York, from January 8th, 2024. Her words outlined Biden's failed plans for illegal immigration to gain political influence. Ms. Ries, you wrote on this issue for Heritage Foundation in February of 2024. The article was titled "Stop Allowing Noncitizens to Determine Congressional and Presidential Representation." It was a great piece, and I plan to introduce the article into Congressional Record at the conclusion of my 5 minutes. The last thing I want to say to Mr. Reichlin-Melnick is I find it interesting as I sit here and listen to you blame President Trump and attack President Trump for saying to the American people that he was going to protect the American people, he was going to put them first, and he was going to implement policies to fix the mess created by the Biden administration. And I just find it rich that you're attacking President Trump for doing exactly what the American people wanted, not the individual who caused this problem. And sadly, if you guys don't figure this issue out, you're going to lose the next election as well. Thank you. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Were you intending to enter something in the record?

Rep. Elijah Crane (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

Yep, I've got several.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

If you'll just give us a brief description so that we can do that at this point.

Rep. Elijah Crane (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

Yep So this is an article: "Biden Promises to Shut Down the Border If Given the Authority in a Partisan Bill."

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Without objection, be entered into the record.

Rep. Elijah Crane (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

Number two, Biden has the power to end the border crisis. He doesn't want to.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Without objection, be entered into the record.

Rep. Elijah Crane (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

Number 3, CBP releases January 2025 monthly update.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Without objection, be entered into the record.

Rep. Elijah Crane (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

stop allowing noncitizens to determine congressional and presidential representation. Ms. Ries,

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Without objection, be entered into the record.

Rep. Elijah Crane (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

And the last one, Brooklyn congresswoman wants migrants to fill up her district.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

And without objection, that will also be entered into the record. At this time, the chair would recognize the gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Ogles, for his 5 minutes of questioning.

Rep. Andrew Ogles (R-TN)SPEAKER_02

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to the witnesses. My colleague invoked history, and so let's start there. Article II, Section 1: The executive power shall be vested in a President of the United States. Section 3: The President shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed. The Take Care Clause allows the president to issue directives and executive orders. And so as we look at how President Trump is addressing the issue of illegal immigration, whether or not he chooses to grant or deny humanitarian parole or amnesty or sanctuary is his prerogative per the Constitution. And staying on the idea of history for a moment, let's not forget all of those folks that entered in this country did so illegally. That is their first act, is an illegal act. It should also be noted, and if there's one takeaway from my questions or testimony in this committee, is that they should be deported. There should be no pathway. There should be no amnesty. This is our country. We get to decide who comes in, and we get to decide who leaves. It's that simple. If my friend and colleague from Arizona and I want to travel overseas, we'd have to do so on a visa. We'd have to do so legally. If we entered a country, whether it's in the Middle East or Europe, illegally, they would kick our butts out. I don't think anyone can deny that fact. And yet we try to hold ourselves to some higher standard, and we point to other issues or complaints about, well, it's stressing the FBI or it's stressing the— the long laundry list of moaning and groaning. And we're forgetting the very fact that they entered this country illegally. And if we choose to send their butts home again— pardon me for saying that, I have children— that's our prerogative. It's just our prerogative. You mentioned, ma'am, in your article the—what I would say a very diabolical motivation for why the Biden administration so carelessly, recklessly allowed our country to be invaded. And that was the presidential election and the next census. Because you see, in the blue states that are having population flight are disproportionately being flooded. You see in the future, in the next census, where states like Tennessee, my home state, Ohio, the Carolinas, Florida, maybe Texas will pick up additional House seats that will forever change the House of Representatives to be, quite frankly, Republican. The Democratic Party, I believe—and this is my opinion—flooded our country to try to stem the inevitable that this country is sick and tired of the woke nonsense and the invasion that's taking place under their watch. You have blue mayors, Democratic mayors in blue cities under the Biden administration that were screaming for assistance, Please stop. We can't take anymore. I went to the border under the Biden administration. I traveled to Tucson. I went south, hit the border, and I went to a section that wasn't controlled by the United States government, but rather the cartel. And while we were there in this very remote area on one of the hottest days of the summer, over 100 people turned themselves in to myself and the special operators that we went down with. I went down with—went down unannounced, by the way. And before Border Patrol would come and pick those individuals up, three different pods, they sent choppers up in the air to fly for over half an hour because they would not come into the area until they had completely surveilled and made sure the cartel wasn't in the area. Some of those gaps in those fence—and by the way, I crossed into Mexico, walked in about 100 yards, and as I walked in, a cartel sniper crossed over the ridge and put eyes on me. This is the United States border. I would argue that a sovereign nation should have three things: a secure border; fair, open, and honest elections; and, obviously, a powerful military. The Biden administration failed at all three of those, and President Trump is working to fix the record. I support the president, and again, I'll emphasize no amnesty. It's time to start mass deportations. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Thank you. At this time, the chair recognizes the gentlelady from South Carolina, Ms. Biggs.

Rep. Sheri Biggs (R-SC)SPEAKER_10

Thank you, Chairman Guest. Border security is a priority for my district, and I'm grateful to you for holding this hearing. And thank you to our witnesses for being here today and giving us your input. The Biden administration border crisis inflicted historic damage on our nation, and I think that is relevant to today. Under his failed leadership, illegal crossings reached record highs, with over 300,000 in December 2023 alone and more than 9 million over Biden's 4 years as president. The illegal population is now estimated to exceed 15 million. Meanwhile, American families, like those in the 3rd District of South Carolina, were left behind. After Hurricane Helene, our community struggled to pick up the pieces while illegal immigrants were placed in luxury hotels. Mr. Chairman, I would like to enter into record this article entitled "Clawed Back: DHS Chief Noem Secures Eye-Popping Sum Sent to New York for Migrant Hotels."

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Your statement will be entered into the record without objection.

Rep. Sheri Biggs (R-SC)SPEAKER_10

Thank you. This article demonstrates how the Biden administration abandoned the American people in favor of spending $59 million in taxpayer money on illegal immigrants in New York City. That's just unfair, and it's un-American. Under President Trump's leadership, we are already seeing a return to law and order and national sovereignty. In just one month back in office, border encounters dropped to just dropped to just 11,000, proving that strong leadership, not luck, solves crisis. So, my question is to Ms. Ries. We've talked about a lot here today, but what impact did this have on average American families? And I'm talking about housing costs or strained school systems, longer wait times for healthcare when the last administration put illegal immigrants ahead of our U.S. citizens,

Lora RiesSPEAKER_09

well, communities were very strained and they weren't notified in advance that large populations were coming to their communities. So they didn't have time to prepare for more teachers or expanded classrooms. So schools were overcrowded, hospital rooms, emergency rooms were overcrowded, not enough shelter. So the, the prices of housing went up. And that is why this was a number one issue for Americans voting last fall.

Rep. Sheri Biggs (R-SC)SPEAKER_10

Okay. And the second part of that question, now that we're back under strong leadership, how do we ensure that future administrations never repeat the failures of the Biden era? Era and always put America first?

Lora RiesSPEAKER_09

Well, this is where Congress needs to step in and codify many of the changes that are necessary. We can't We shouldn't be going back and forth president to president via executive order. We need to shut down the benefit fraud, particularly asylum fraud, make sure there's enough resources not just for CBP, but also for ICE and the interior, which is so important right now in the reconciliation bill.

Rep. Sheri Biggs (R-SC)SPEAKER_10

Thank you. And with that, I yield back.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Gentlelady yields back. At this time, I recognize the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Knott, for his 5 minutes of questioning.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Witnesses, it's great to hear what you had to say. I'm sorry that I've been back and forth. I was able to hear most of your opening statements, and thank you for your opinions. Thank you for the work that you all have achieved to get here and to provide such valuable information. And from my background, I agree with most of what was said, and my personal belief is that the the border crisis of the last 4 years was an intentional act inflicted upon the American people. There were mechanisms that were used and procedures that were implemented that had never been used before. And as a prosecutor in the Department of Justice, I saw internally how they made it more difficult than it had ever been in my career to prosecute illegal immigrant criminals. And whether it was the temporary protective status, whether it was the refusal for permission, whether it was change of policy, whatever it was, the nerve center of Washington, D.C. again made it more difficult for people in the United States to protect themselves against illegal immigrant crime or just the overflow of people who came into our communities. And, Mr. Reichlin-Melnick, I do want to talk to you. I heard your opening statement, and again, from my perspective, labeling the Biden-Harris record on immigration as mixed, I think, is sort of a gross misstatement. And just on a on a basic level, would you be willing to admit that the Biden-Harris administration was willing to incentivize illegal immigration?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

No, I don't think that's accurate. And I'm happy to explain more if you'd like.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

Well, would you admit that there were obviously motivations beyond just asylum seekers that propelled people into the United States?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Yeah, there was a mixed flow. There were genuine, legitimate asylum seekers, tens of thousands of which who have won their cases every year, and there were economic migrants, absolutely.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

And in the United States, taxpayers foot the bill for healthcare for illegal immigrants. Isn't that correct?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Um, it really depends on the circumstance. We know undocumented— all

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

right, I'll, I'll play favorable. In some instances, taxpayers foot the bill for healthcare for illegal immigrants, correct?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

EMTALA requires emergency rooms to treat every person regardless of status. Yes.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

Well, in some states there are programs where you don't have to be here legally and you can get access to Medicaid, correct?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

I believe some states have emergency Medicaid for pregnant women, yes.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

And in some instances, taxpayers foot the bill for housing for illegal immigrants, is that correct?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Um, again, in some circumstances, some communities have opened up status programs to people regardless of immigration.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

Taxpayers foot the bill for healthcare, housing. There's also transportation costs that are inflicted on the taxpayers, correct?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Um, I'm unaware of what you're referring to there.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

Well, people were flown into the country illegally. Once they were here illegally, they were bused all over the country. They arrived in New York City, California, North Carolina, Texas, Illinois, at the taxpayers' expense.

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Yes. Governor Abbott chose to run that program.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

And, well, he's not the only person that ran that program, correct? There are, there are dollars far beyond Texas that put illegal immigrants all over this country.

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Other states and communities offered up travel vouchers to some individuals who wanted to travel to other countries.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

And in some instances, upon arrival, illegal immigrants parents can get driver's licenses. Isn't that correct?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Um, in some states, driver's licenses are available to any resident regardless of immigration.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

And even in some municipalities, people who are here outside the permission of the law can even vote. Isn't that correct?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Uh, I am unfamiliar with any who allow that. There are some states that allow non-citizens to vote. I'm unsure whether that applies to people who are here in violation of immigration law.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

So just so we're clear, there was the program that allows healthcare, housing, transportation, food, driver's licenses, and even the right to vote. And the advocates for the Biden-Harris administration say there were not incentives for illegal immigrants to come here. Hypothetically, let me ask you this. Illegal immigrants are counted in the census, correct?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Uh, that's correct.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

So if California loses 1 million American citizens, 1 million taxpayers, because of the overregulation, the high cost of living, whatever it may be, and 1 million illegal immigrants are sent to California, they don't lose one electoral vote. Isn't that correct?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Um, it's

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

basic math. Isn't that correct?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

It depends on the other populations, actually, because if other states grow higher, the formula is actually quite complicated.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

They don't— they're not penalized by driving 1 million American taxpayers out of their state. Isn't that correct? If they've refilled those seats with 1 million illegal immigrants,

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

it depends on population growth and changes elsewhere. The formula is quite complicated. A state can maintain a stable population and still gain or lose representatives,

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

but they, they are able to maintain their electoral clout as if no one had left their state, correct?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Again, it— this is a complicated formula. Depends on other states and the overall population growth. Maintaining a stable level of population does not necessarily lead to the same level of representatives.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

Well, gaining 1 million illegal immigrants at minimum, at minimum, maintains electoral clout, correct?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

It would maintain population.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

Certainly. And that's counted in the Electoral College.

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Yes,

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

That's counted in the House of Representatives representation, correct?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Yes, though, I will of course note, Texas and Florida are the second and third highest level of undocumented immigrants in the country.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

That's not the question, but I appreciate the point. Illegal immigrants are afforded representation at the expense of citizens in states wherever they are.

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

I would not say at the expense. You

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

don't have to. Again, you're advocating for Biden and Harris. It's my time, sir. You are advocating for Biden and Harris's immigration record, which, again, I think is a gross overcomplimentary position. Ms. Ries.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Mr. Knott, I'm sorry, but your time has expired.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

We'll talk soon. Thank you, ma'am.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

At this point, the chair would recognize the gentlelady from Texas, Ms. Johnson, for 5 minutes.

Rep. Julie Johnson (D-TX)SPEAKER_11

Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. It's an honor to be on this subcommittee with everyone here. Being in Texas, I have a frontline view of our border situation, and we can all agree it is a mess. Our agents are significantly under-resourced and our agencies are woefully underfunded. But we would all be fooling ourselves if we said this was all on the Biden administration. Our immigration failures has been multi-administration long, over decades. George Bush tried to first solve this. Obama tried to solve this. Multiple presidents have tried to solve this, but it has been routinely stopped in the Congress. Republicans like to brag about border security. We're pumping our chests today trying to attack the Biden administration. But where was everybody last Congress when there was a bill on the table to fix it? There was a bipartisan bill worked on by members of both parties to have an agreement to put much-needed emphasis on solving our border crisis, to give much-needed resources to the border. One of the problems is that it takes people five years to get an appointment, just an appointment to determine if they're here. And this is a crisis that needs to be fixed. But President Trump didn't want this border security bill under the Biden administration because he didn't want Biden to have a win. He was willing to compromise the ongoing safety and security of our border for politics, to have a campaign issue. And Republicans in this Congress silently complied, despite months and months of work to come up with a comprehensive, agreed-to bill that just doesn't happen in this building when people can come to it on both sides and agree. The reality of it is President Biden had an aggressive asylum reduction program that worked. Right, Mr. Reichlin-Melnick? It worked. There was a significant decrease in people coming to our border by the end of the Biden administration. Isn't that true?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Yes. Border apprehensions dropped 80% from December 2023 to January 2025.

Rep. Julie Johnson (D-TX)SPEAKER_11

And so here we are. If we're talking about people coming to the border, it worked under President Biden's leadership. And what didn't work was passing a bill under Republican leadership in this building because they kowtowed to President Trump, who wanted a campaign issue. And now what we have is we're not going after violent criminals, we are going after kids with cancer. We're going after people who want to come here and build houses. We're not pursuing criminals. We're not pursuing drug dealers. We're pursuing chefs and cooks and people who want to pave our roads and work as floor nurses in our country. And we're rounding up people who are here contributing to our economy, paying taxes so that we can have some photo-op in Guantanamo of nonviolent criminals. One of the things that you said earlier that really struck me in your comments, sir, was how we are diverting our various agency personnel from drug enforcement, from terrorist investigation, making our communities less safe to round up illegally people who are just here working, taking care of their families. Isn't that right?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

That's right.

Rep. Julie Johnson (D-TX)SPEAKER_11

I'm very worried about that. And then also, where are the outcries? If we're talking about security of this country, where are the outcries of the outrageous, irresponsible recklessness of the Secretary of Defense of putting national security secrets on a damn Signal chat? Where is that outcry? There should be, regardless of party, uniform outrage demanding that these folks on this Signal chat come and testify to Congress so that we can uncover the gross violations of our national security that was engaged in the Trump administration. But again, crickets. I yield back.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

The gentlelady yields. We will now go into a second round of questioning. We will then allow Mr. Knott to start us off. Mr. Knott, you have 5 minutes for the next round of questioning.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

Thank you, Mr. Chairman Guest. Just to follow up with where we left off, again, I think that any summary or analysis of the Biden administration's immigration performance other than it was an abysmal failure for the country is far too rosy and candidly far too partisan. And I say that with respect. I understand that we can disagree, but when you look at the overall toll and the cost that it made most Americans feel and pay, anything other than an outright failure is far too rosy of a picture. And again, I'm familiar with your organization, Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. It does not seem to be very bipartisan. It seems to be very, very open-ended in terms of just there is no number that would be too high, there's no cost that would be too high for the for the American people to take. And again, I'll go back to Ms. Ries in regards to what we were discussing earlier with Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. You made some some very compelling points in so far as it was an unsustainable influx for the country. And whether it's healthcare, whether it was law enforcement, whether it was educational quality, whether it was just basic infrastructure, can you please flesh out very concisely how illegal immigration, especially over the last four years, has been an unsustainable burden on the country?

Lora RiesSPEAKER_09

Well, starting, tens of billions of dollars went out the door to NGOs to build a very secretive infrastructure to bring in millions of people. So we have that sunk cost. Then we have overwhelmed communities, overcrowded schools, emergency rooms, jails, law enforcement, lack of housing, etc. And the communities have spent hundreds of millions of dollars, in some cases billions of dollars. The New York, New York City mayor testified the billions of dollars New York City has spent on the back end to provide these services to illegal aliens. That doesn't even account for the deaths, the violence, etc., which is incalculable.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

Yes. And in regards to the incentives that we were talking about, there was no acknowledgment that there were incentives for illegal immigrants to come here illegally. I'm curious as to your opinion. The way I see it, there was innumerable incentives for people to come here illegally, as evidenced by the fact that they did to the tune of 10+ million crossings. What incentives were you familiar with?

Lora RiesSPEAKER_09

The open border, the fact that they were released into the country, the fact that they could work here, continue to send money home, bring family here, have children here, etc.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

Yep. Mr. Anfinsen, if I could get your take. You're familiar, obviously, with Border Patrol and the morale. Isn't it true, sir, that whether it was prosecutions of illegal reentries or the policies that came from the top at Border Patrol, the ability to enforce the border was compromised intentionally over the last 4 years?

Jon AnfinsenSPEAKER_06

It was very difficult to seek prosecution. There were very specific and high criteria, very high bar to get prosecutions, certainly compared to previous years.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

And there was a lot of kerfuffle that was mentioned earlier that we can't fight terrorists, we cannot fight drug traffickers based off of the policies that the Trump administration is putting into place. Again, I find that grossly offensive. Can you fight terrorists? Can you fight drug traffickers with the open border policies that we saw over the last 4 years?

Jon AnfinsenSPEAKER_06

You can't do anything with open borders policies but let people in.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

except welcome them in. So again, this narrative that we cannot fight criminals with, with tough immigration enforcement, I find to be fundamentally contrary to reality. In regards to the border bill that they said that President Trump torpedoed, did you have an opinion about that bill?

Jon AnfinsenSPEAKER_06

As an organization, we were in favor of it to a degree. I call it sort of like a Stockholm syndrome. At that point, we had been used and abused for so long that anything seemed good. But in the long run, it had a sunset clause. It was going to go away, and then it wasn't going to change anything in the long run.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

And there were obviously portions of that bill that were— that were— that would have codified, in terms of tools that you had, that would— it would have made it more difficult in some respects to enforce the border.

Jon AnfinsenSPEAKER_06

Ultimately, yes, sir.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

Mr. Blair, in regards to your experience, are you familiar with the way that that bill that was referenced by my colleague on the other side of the aisle would have hurt the ability to enforce the border?

Ammon S. BlairSPEAKER_12

Yes, sir. It would have codified illegal immigration to the sum of a few thousand.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And, uh, it would have— it would— before the border was closed, it would have welcomed roughly 2 million in before it was an automatic closure, correct?

Ammon S. BlairSPEAKER_12

Yes, sir.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

And in regards to the exact language, it legalized, codified catch and release, Ries correct?

Ammon S. BlairSPEAKER_12

Uh, yes, sir, I did.

Rep. Brad Knott (R-NC)SPEAKER_03

Um, I'm again running short on time, Mr. Chairman. I will yield back the balance. Again, I thank the witnesses for their testimony, and, uh, we could— we appreciate any, any commentary on how to make immigration work for the American people. Thank you.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Mr. Knott. It's amazing how quickly 5 minutes goes by, is it not? At this time, I yield to the gentleman from California, Mr. Correa, for his 5 minutes of questioning.

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

Thank you very much, Mr. Reichlin-Melnick. I wanted quick questions and answers. Have U.S. citizens and legal permanent residents been caught up in President Trump immigration raids?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Yes.

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

Have veterans who've served honorably and have been discharged honorably, have they been affected? Have they been deported?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

A veteran in Newark was arrested, but of course veterans have been deported for years. In fact, we've long called on Congress to provide— Has

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

due process been afforded to individuals detained?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

We have serious concerns about the process that's going on, including multiple allegations of violations of settlements and violations of detention standards.

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

Chairman, I got to tell you, great issues here. And Ms. Ries, I heard you talk about census, redistricting. A little bit about my political history: I started out trying to represent an area whose voter— registered voters, US citizen voter registration participation was very low. Heavily immigrant community never wanted to vote. It's called voter suppression. They would get letters saying anybody who's not eligible, legally registered to vote, you are subject to a felony. When you get a letter like that at home, guess what people do? They say, Hell no, I'm not voting. I don't care if I'm registered. I'm legally registered, or I'm not going to vote because I'm going to stay away from that process. In the last census, President Trump put out an edict: do not count them people. Who are those people? All the above. California lost one seat, congressional seat. Texas should have gained three seats, but in Texas, unlike California, they didn't encourage people to be signed up to be counted—citizens, noncitizens, legal and undocumented. There's a lot of issues here, love to sit down and talk to you. Mr. Reichlin-Melnick, what's the value of nearshoring? We're talking about bringing back manufacturing from China to the USA. Southern California today is the manufacturing center of the United States. Guess who those employees are that are working making widgets?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

I think immigrant workers tend to have a very—

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

with and without documents, because I have those employers saying, Lou, help me. My workers need to be legalized. They're not. So what's the value of nearshoring? We talk about the costs, but not the benefits.

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

and

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

national defense. What's the value of national defense?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

And this is one of the reasons that we think that a path to legal status can help push back against the unscrupulous employers that are exploiting people. This country needs to

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

talk about an incentive

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

to

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

come to the US. Let's talk about incentive to come to the US. My trip to Guatemala, they were telling me, Guatemalan officials, that it cost $20,000 to make the trip from Guatemala to the border. You get two shots at crossing the border. After that, you're done. 80% of the women who undertake that trip north are raped or sexually abused. Mr. Anfinsen, you know that as well. What is the incentive for these people? A welfare check? Is that going to get raped so I can get a welfare check? It's going to cost me $20,000 cash. What's the incentive?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

It's the American dream.

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

hunger, something for my children in the future, and my kids are being recruited to go into gangs. This is the bigger issue here we have to address. It's not Biden. It's not Trump. It's public policy. General Kelly, General Kelly, former Homeland Security chairman, would say border security does not begin or end at the border. It's all of the above. And love to work with all of you on big public policy. Immigration to this country, a lot lately, record number lately. When was the last time we had such record numbers? Early 1900s? Yes.

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Yeah. And 1990s.

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

In the 1900s, what was their policy? You walked in through Ellis Island and what was the policy? Deport you or

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

You just had to show up at the US border. As long as you could show that you didn't have a disease or a serious enfeeblement was the laws, they would let you in.

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

1990s. Today. What's the policy?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

We've got a significantly more restrictive policy. In fact, we haven't updated our immigration laws since November 1990. It's been 35 years.

Ranking Member Lou Correa (D-CA)SPEAKER_08

What I'm trying to say, ladies and gentlemen, this is a multi-challenging issue. Immigration, border security, U.S. economic policy, foreign public policy, trade public policy, all symptoms of the same issue, which is American security. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Love to continue the discussion, but I think I'm out of time. I yield.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Thank you. At this time, I recognize myself. Mr. Reichlin-Melnick, in your opening written statement, you say that over 18% of individuals held in ICE detention who were arrested by the interior by ICE had no criminal record. So putting that into perspective, 82% of those individuals arrested by ICE were at least charged, if not convicted, with crimes. Is that correct?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

That's correct. We know from ICE data the majority of those are immigration offenses and low-level offenses. In fact, only 12% of people currently held in ICE detention are categorized as the most serious offenders.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

And then previous questions, I asked you a little bit about final orders of removal, and I think you said, and if I'm not trying to misstate. So if I get this wrong, please feel free to correct me that you believe that roughly 20% of the final orders of removals should not be enforced because the individuals claiming asylum, they failed to appear at their court proceedings. Is that accurate?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

No, I didn't say they should not be enforced. I wanted to emphasize each individual case has to be assessed individually. Some people have a final order due to no fault of their own. The government didn't send the notice to appear to the right address, for example. So that's why each case has to be looked at individually. I don't want to do a categorical statement, every person with a final order should be removed, because some of them were removed in error, were ordered removed in error, and they have a right to go back to the court and say, I'd like you to fix this, there was a mistake done.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

And so it seems to me, and maybe I'm mistaken, that you would like to establish what's known in the legal law, and as you know, as a bright-line test. Is it a— are you trying to say that the bright line test of this administration should be that no individual who has not been charged with a crime should be removed from the country?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

No, but in a world of limited resources where we have nearly 4 million people in immigration court, it is important to focus on those with the most serious offenses first, not just take a scattershot approach to everybody.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

All right, and to the Trump administration's credit, over eight out of every 10 of the individuals that they have apprehended have been charged with some crime. Now, we can argue whether or not we think that crime is serious enough that they should be apprehended or not, but over 80% have been charged with crime. And so there's not this round up where we're out there seeking to bring in large numbers of people that have not been charged with crimes. You've not seen that, have you?

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

We have seen a significant increase of arrests of people with no criminal convictions.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

And we've also seen a significant increase those arrested that have criminal convictions.

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

Yes, overall. And those overall

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

numbers, overall numbers have grown over 600% from the same numbers a year ago. And so if your numbers are growing by 600%, you're going to see a larger increase of those with criminal convictions than those without. But then when you look at the overall percentages, we're still talking that 82% of the individuals arrested by ICE that they are seeking to deport have some sort of criminal convictions. And then you throw in addition to that those that we talked about earlier with final orders of removal. And so I think it is unfair for you to characterize the fact that this administration is out going seeking to just round up anyone that they can find on the street, because that is not supported by the documents, is not supported by the numerical information that you've provided.

Aaron Reichlin-MelnickSPEAKER_14

I think the ratio has changed. When President Trump took office, about 6% of people in ICE detention arrested by ICE had no criminal record. So, it's 18% now. It's tripled. So, certainly arrests overall are going up, but the portion of those arrests that are people with no criminal record is rising faster than the portion of the arrest of those people with a criminal record.

Chairman Michael Guest (R-MS)SPEAKER_13

Thank you. To close on a high note, Mr. Anfinsen, I want to ask you if you would do myself and Representative Correa a favor when you return back to the men and women that you serve with: please tell them that we thank them for their service. We thank them for their sacrifice. I pledge to you that myself and Ranking Member Correa, that we will do everything within our authority to make sure that the men and women who serve our country have the resources that they need, that you have the number of agents that you need to perform your duties, and then also that you have the pay that you need so that those individuals can support their families, and that those individuals can be compensated for the work that they do. So with that, I would like to thank all of our witnesses for being here today. We had a distinguished panel. I believe that while we had a very robust discussion at times, I believe that it was an important discussion. Again, we appreciate you giving of your time to enlighten us and other members of this committee on the important decisions that we have facing us. And with that, the hearing will be adjourned. Thank you.