Public Funds, Private Agendas: NGOs Gone Wild

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

This hearing of the Subcommittee on Delivering on Government Efficiency will come to order. Welcome, everyone. Without objection, the chair may declare a recess at any time. I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening statement. Good morning, and welcome to another DOGE subcommittee hearing, where we will highlight more abuses of your tax dollars. The left has funneled hundreds of billions of federal tax dollars through nongovernmental organizations, NGOs, to push destructive policies and line the pockets of their friends and allies. This NGO scheme demonstrates massive waste and abuse of federal resources. Today's hearing will bring transparency to— for the American people. We will expose the corrupt ties that bind left-wing NGOs, Democrat-elected officials, Democrat political appointees, and the deep-state bureaucrats who write grants and contracts. Corrupt backdoor dealmaking has exploited the taxpayer purse to achieve policy ends opposed by the very Americans forced to fund them, whether by pushing green energy energy scams or facilitating the resettlement of millions of illegal aliens into American towns and cities. The alliance between big government and and allied NGOs has been highly effective and has been flying under the public's radar for far too long. But today, we are going to draw back the curtain. The scheme works in a cycle, as shown here. Democrat administration officials work with leftist NGOs to implement programs in a manner that ensures those NGOs receive massive grants and contracts. The leaders of those recipient groups then turn around and donate to Democrat political campaigns. This intricate web of connections is how elected and appointed Democrat officials and allied NGOs work together. Federal agencies fund the NGOs, and the NGOs shape the agencies' behavior. It can be hard to tell to tell where the government ends and the NGO begins. The nonprofits essentially serve as an arm of the government. To put it another way, if the permanent bureaucracy is the de facto fourth branch of the government, then these leftist NGOs are the fifth. Our witnesses today will describe how the left has funneled hundreds of billions of U.S. tax dollars through NGOs, discuss the destructive policies this has enabled, and detail the damage done to our country. So-called green energy NGOs are among the worst offenders. They have used federal dollars to destabilize the U.S. power grid and energy dominance, while raising energy costs on Americans. The Biden EPA steered billions in U.S. tax dollars to leftist climate NGOs via a $20 billion slush fund known as the Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund, GGRF. Like-minded nonprofits were enlisted to implement President Biden's Green New Deal scam. While we are grateful to the Trump administration and EPA Administrator Lee Zeldin for shutting it down and quickly terminating these grants, further accountability is necessary. The full Committee on Oversight and Government Reform is investigating Biden's GGRF. We know that all the awardees are connected to both the Biden administration and Democratic donors and that they sit on each other's boards in an incestuous circle. Today, we will shine light on this dynamic. Take, for example, who the Democrats choose to bring in as their witnesses: someone so entrenched into the system that she was a director at the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, a leader of a housing organization that lobbied for more federal spending, and now a nationally renowned nonprofit leader who donates to Democrat campaigns. Other examples include many green NGOs that employ former Biden administration officials. These people wrote the rules for this climate grift in which they now partake. As government officials, they were paid by taxpayers to conduct the grift. Now taxpayers are funding the grant awards that pay their salaries. This cash grab was so large that some nonprofits were birthed solely to get in on the game. One newly created nonprofit, Power Forward, received an received an astonishing $2 billion from Biden's EPA, despite having just been formed. Power Forward is now part of a network tied to Rewiring America, which employs Stacey Abrams, the twice-failed Democrat candidate for governor in Georgia and voting rights activist. After all, however, she would have been a good hire, given her history of running her own nonprofit, which spent $3.2 million on campaign resources instructing voters to support her campaign, all of which are prohibited actions for nonprofits. Consequently, her nonprofit was levied the largest penalty ever imposed in Georgia's history for violating state campaign finance laws. This is the circle of life. Climate and energy is just one area where the entrenched bureaucrats and political appointees have partnered with NGOs to do the left's bidding. Illegal immigration is another. Federally funded NGOs have egregiously abused tax dollars to fund the invasion at our southern border by providing housing, transportation, legal services, and more to shepherd illegal aliens across our border and settle them in our country. These NGOs support the cartels in their mission to invade our country under the guise of assisting migrants. These groups have placed criminal networks, dangerous gangs, and human traffickers into American towns and cities. Think about this. The American people's hard-earned taxpayer dollars have been used to literally import rapists, murderers, and terrorists from around the world straight into our communities. Where were these NGOs when 22-year-old Laken Riley was violently murdered by an illegal? Where were these NGOs when 12-year-old Jocelyn Nungaray was brutally raped and murdered by one of these illegals? And where were these NGOs when 20-year-old Kayla Hamilton was raped and strangled to death by an illegal? Where were these NGOs over the weekend when the illegal alien launched Molotov cocktails into a crowd in Boulder, Colorado, intentionally injuring a dozen Americans in an antisemitic attack? I'll tell you: They were continuing to receive taxpayer dollars to import more of these illegal alien monsters to commit more heinous crimes against our people. Many Americans are familiar with the more egregious offenders. These include Catholic Charities, which raked in over $2 billion during Biden's four years, and the Lutheran Immigration and Refugee Service, which received over $221 million in government grants in fiscal year 2023 alone. But many American taxpayers are still unwittingly funding this sort of illegal activity through the United Nations, which is the conduit for much of the funding NGOs use to resettle in our country. Americans are likely unaware that their tax dollars are funding U.N. efforts such as the cash and voucher program involving 624,000 illegal aliens crossing the border just last year. This $372 million program provides prepaid debit cards and cash in envelopes to illegal aliens to facilitate their movement to and through the U.S. border. The American taxpayer is funding groups that start the migration, the groups that show people how to cross the border by evading U.S. immigration laws. These groups that have bused and flown illegal aliens, many of them dangerous, into America. Whether exploiting taxpayers to push illegal immigration or fake environmental justice, the left's NGO scheme seeks to destroy our country and fundamentally alter the American way of life. This ongoing waste and abuse of taxpayer resources must end. The Trump administration is turning the tide, and today's hearing is intended to expedite the effort to drain these slush funds dry. If we don't, Democrats can't wait to return to power and continue funding their NGO friends through slush funds and stop deportations, keep these illegal alien criminals in our country, and, of course, fund the Green New Deal scam again. And with that, I yield to the ranking member, Stansbury, for her opening statement.

Ranking Member Melanie Stansbury (D-NM)SPEAKER_18

All right. Well, good afternoon, everyone. Welcome, indeed, to the DOGE subcommittee. It's always an interesting journey here. Madam Chairwoman, before we get started, I want to take a moment to observe that this very subcommittee was created in January to act as the congressional tip of the spear for DOGE and Elon Musk's efforts inside the federal government, which our GOP colleagues were falling all over themselves to get in on the action. And in fact, I don't know if you know this, Madam Chairwoman, but one of your own GOP members who couldn't get on the committee actually contacted me to see if I could help, because they were so desperate to participate in this activity. But here we are. I feel like we should play a break-up song in the midst of the break up of the GOP with Elon Musk and DOGE. And yet, still, the zombie lurches on. And, you know, I think it's interesting that people are barely saying his name in these halls, and this subcommittee barely has any credibility at this point. And Elon Musk still hasn't appeared under oath in front of this committee or anybody here in Congress. And in fact, Donald Trump himself apparently asked his own aides this week if DOGE was, and I quote the president, "bullshit." Donald Trump asked if DOGE was bullshit. Meanwhile, our friend Mr. Musk is going crazy on Twitter. We just checked; he's still going at it. And he literally has been tweetstorming the GOP for the last 24 hours. And he says, I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore. This massive, outrageous, pork-filled congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination. Shame on those who voted for it. You know you did wrong. You know it. And you know what I find interesting about his tweet is that he says, I'm sorry, I just can't stand it anymore. And I think, you know, the American people have been there for the last 3 and 1/2 months as they've dismantled the federal government, as Musk and Trump and his friends here have helped lay wake to the federal government, dismantling federal agencies, firing thousands of federal workers, stealing your private data, costing the federal government millions of dollars. And in fact, it appears that they may have actually cost more money than they apparently saved. So it's hard to take any of this seriously or with any credibility. Musk lied about DOGE and its savings. The president and the speaker, just this morning, once again, lied about the big abomination of the bill and the deficit spending in it. There was a misrepresentation of a witness in this hearing last time. There was lies about the budget reconciliation and, yes, the DOGE package, which was transmitted to Congress yesterday. And I don't think I even need to comment on the wild journey of baseless conspiracy theories that we just heard. So it's very clear that DOGE has made America less safe, less secure, undermined our global and national security, compromised our data privacy, impacted our ability to serve our vulnerable communities, and left the government in total chaos. And yet many of these DOGE brothers have implanted themselves inside of federal agencies and are now answering directly to the West Wing and to the director of Office of Management and Budget, Mr. Russell Vought, who, by the way, is testifying just across this campus on his bill for the FY '26 budget, which would eviscerate these programs. So I want to say, first they came for our federal agencies, then they came for our judges and law firms and the rule of law. Then they came for the free press and your freedom of speech. Then they came for higher education and our children. Then they came for congressional offices. And now, here they are, coming for civil society and nonprofit organizations. What are nonprofit organizations? Food banks, legal aid clinics, homeless shelters, organizations that are the glue of our communities. In fact, right now, they are withholding $0.5 trillion illegally from nonprofit organizations that provide services for our communities—public safety, health services, housing, the Big Brothers and Big Sisters of America, Boys and Girls Club, and Habitat for Humanity. Is this the dark-money scare that we're hearing across the aisle? I think all of us understand what these organizations do in our communities. But let us be clear: The actions that are happening here in this committee, and which the administration are trying to execute through executive actions, through letters, and, yes, sending DOGE employees baselessly and illegally into nonprofit organizations, are illegal. They lack moral authority, and they lack legal authority. The truth is simple: Neither the president nor any other executive branch official has the power to unilaterally revoke an organization's tax-exempt status, or to use these authoritarian tactics to try to intimidate our nonprofit and civil society organizations. And we will dive deeper into that topic and your rights during this hearing. But if my colleagues across the aisle want to talk about dark-money networks, we can look no further than this very hearing room. Because if we actually want to understand the dark-money-funded networks that are making the government run right now, let's talk about Project 2025: The witnesses who are here today as part of the organizations that helped to craft it; Mr. Vought, who was at the helm as the architect of that document; and the folks who are inside the federal government right now dismantling our agencies and attacking every aspect of our democracy. We will not stand for it. And with that, Madam Chairwoman, I yield back.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

Without objection, Representatives Gosar of Arizona, Moskowitz of Florida, and Pressley of Massachusetts are waived onto the subcommittee for the purpose of questioning the witnesses at today's committee hearing. I'm pleased to introduce our witnesses today. Scott Walker is the president of Capital Research Center and an expert in investigating how nonprofits spend money and get involved in politics and advocacy. Mark Krikorian is the Executive Director of the Center for Immigration Studies and is an expert on the issues of immigration and border security. Daniel Turner is the founder and Executive Director of Power the Future and an expert in energy and environmental issues. Diane Yentel is the President and Chief Executive Officer of the National Council of Nonprofits. Again, I want to thank all of you for being here to testify today. Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses will please stand and raise their right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Let the record show that the witnesses answered in the affirmative. Thank you. You may take a seat. We appreciate you being here today and look forward to your testimony. Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written statements and they will appear in full in the hearing record. Please limit your oral statement to 5 minutes. As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in front of you so that it is on and the members can hear you. When you begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn green. After 4 minutes, the light will turn yellow. When the red light comes on, your 5 minutes has expired, and we would ask that you please wrap it up quickly. I now recognize Mr. Walter for his opening statement.

Mr. Scott WalterSPEAKER_19

Thank you, Chairwoman Greene, Ranking Member Stansbury, distinguished members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the honor of testifying. I'm president of the Capital Research Center, where we study nonprofits every day. Americans are proud of our nonprofit sector, which has long led the world, because they love real charities that actually help people here and abroad. They don't think of the nonprofit sector as the plaything of billionaires and politicians. Yet, all too often, that is the reality of our nongovernmental organizations, or NGOs. Far too many NGOs are really BGOs—basically government organizations—for two reasons. First, they get most of their money from government, not citizens. Second, they serve the big-government political agenda that fights to centralize power in Washington for the benefit of the left's preferred political party. From countless egregious examples, consider the Solidarity Center. This nonprofit child of the country's largest union federation, the AFL-CIO, is chaired by the AFL-CIO's president. Solidarity Center doesn't just boost unions, it also champions DEI and climate justice. It's suing the current administration because DOGE recommended its federal gravy train end. It received over $86 million from the federal government since 2008. 61 of that 86 million was given under President Biden, doubtless encouraged by the three Solidarity employees who went into the Labor Department. Solidarity receives 99% of its revenue from American taxpayers. It serves the AFL-CIO, which gave 86% of its 2024 political donations to Democrats. Today's Democratic witness, Diane Yentel, is yet another powerful example of nonprofits serving big government. One of her typical tweets attacked DOGE and defended the Vera Institute of Justice, which, in 2023, received 79% of its revenues from government. It's a hard-left, Soros-backed group whose priorities oppose the views of America's democratic majority by advocating soft-on-crime policies and defending illegal aliens. Its biggest vendor in its last IRS filing was Blue State Digital, which began life as Barack Obama's digital campaign team and now serves the entire left. Ms. Yentel was hired by Obama at HUD, and President Biden considered her for a Cabinet post. Her previous job was leading the National Low Income Housing Coalition, an NGO that advocates for ever more federal spending by HUD and uses identity politics to justify its agenda. In her current job leading the National Council of Nonprofits, Ms. Yentel quickly sued the Trump administration over budget cuts. What lawyers did she turn to? The Democracy Forward Foundation, whose board includes President Biden's notorious chief of staff, Ron Klain, and is chaired by Marc Elias, the Democratic superlawyer. Ms. Yentel claims the Republican tax bill would have handed, quote, "unchecked power to the Trump administration to punish nonprofit orgs that don't fall in line with its ideology" by labeling them as terrorist-supporting groups. Nonsense. As an honest left-leaning law professor explained in the Chronicle of Philanthropy, quote, "A despot seeking to silence nonprofits would be weakened, not empowered, by the legislation." No wonder nonprofit expert Bill Schambra warned that Yentel's partisanship at a major nonprofit membership group may erode public support for nonprofits by suggesting, quote, "Nonprofits are just like any other major institution of American society, fighting fiercely to maintain the status quo against necessary reforms." It's understandable, though not admirable, that status quo nonprofit leaders are scared by DOGE examining their government funding. They'll use an Urban Institute study designed to scare you members of Congress with statistics like government grants support nonprofits in every congressional district. No one explains why it's wonderful that so many nonprofits are as dependent on government cash as a meth addict is on methamphetamine. The same study stresses how larger nonprofits especially hoover up tax dollars. But while big nonprofits are often less effective at helping people compared to smaller neighborhood groups, they certainly are more powerful at lobbying government in the service of bigger government and the left. They're also great at suing government. This politicized pseudo-charity aimed at bloating government and seizing political power goes back decades, as when the Obama administration took money from Catholic Charities and gave it to Planned Parenthood. This is a simple, ugly story of tax dollars, cronyism, and political scheming camouflaged by invoking the moving stories of the real heroes of America's charitable sector. Please don't fall for the sob stories.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

Thank you, Mr. Walter. I now recognize Mr. Krikorian for his opening statement.

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

Thank you. During the 4 years of the Biden administration, the United States devoted significant taxpayer funds to facilitating illegal immigration. There's been much reporting about the role of NGOs in this process after the illegal immigrants crossed into the United States. But what the center has examined is what happened before the migrants got to the Rio Grande, in other words, how NGOs and UN agencies were paid by U.S. taxpayers to facilitate the illegal movement of migrants from through South and Central America and Mexico. We've documented a large UN-NGO support network from field reporting and annual reports from this group called the Regional Refugee and Migrant Response Plan. This network consisted of way stations all along Latin American illegal migration routes that made it possible for millions of foreign nationals from as many as 180 countries to illegally get to the U.S. border, in part funded by U.S. taxpayers. Some of this— some of these funds were provided directly to NGOs by the State Department's Bureau of Population, Refugees, and Migration, or USAID. Other funding was sent indirectly through our funding of UN agencies, which then, in turn, funded NGOs. This often was described as merely humanitarian assistance to people who would travel anyway. But in reality, this amounted to a coordinated, well-funded assistance to— designed to undermine U.S. immigration laws. Starting in South America and Central America, NGOs handed out millions of dollars worth of supplies designed to assist recipients in their plans to illegally breach the borders, not just of the United States, but of half a dozen countries along the way. Just a couple of examples: In Colombia, in northwestern Colombia, the center found NGOs working in coordination with a paramilitary drug smuggling group called Clan del Golfo, also known as the Gaitanistas, which controlled the smuggling routes in those areas. To get an idea of how this worked, there's a town in northwest Colombia called Necoclí, which is a major staging area for migrants trying to cross the Gulf of Urabá to get to the jumping-off point for trips through the Darién Gap. Well, our researcher went to Necoclí and found what amounted to kind of a swap meet or farmers market of NGO groups, with booths of UN and NGO organizations there to provide assistance. Just a couple of examples: the Florida-based NGO CADENA was set up in a booth next to the Silver Spring-based Adventist Development and Relief Agency, and there were many other U.S.-based and overseas-based groups there. And they provided a variety of services: assistance on how to make it through the Darién Gap, food, dry socks, backpacks, etc. When they crossed that Gulf of Urabá, they're still in Colombia, and they get to the village of Acandí, which is where you jump off to go to the Darién Gap. And there the NGO-UN group, the camp, was in a was in a camp where the security for the camp was provided by this drug smuggling gang. In other words— and it's not clear to us, we don't have evidence of this, but it seems likely to me that NGOs and the UN paid for the security by paying this drug smuggling gang for security for this jumping-off point. After they pass through Central America, they get to southern Mexico, cross from Guatemala into southern Mexico, and there, Tapachula is the town that is the first place you get to. And what we found there was a large, kind of a one-stop-shop illegal immigration mall, where the UN agencies and the NGOs were supposed to be housing them. This was under construction when we went last fall. And it was only one of similar many similar camps. There's several in northern Mexico as well. Especially curious in Tapachula was an NGO funded by the UN, which means funded by the U.S., which provided repressed memory therapy for illegal immigrants who had been rejected for asylum by Mexico, which they do in order to be able to make it through Mexico without hassles. They'd been rejected. They went to the repressed memory theory therapy and got a certificate that they had forgotten about the persecution they had suffered, and now they remembered it. And so they went to their appeal and they got their their asylum status. So, throughout Latin America, these networks, funded in part by U.S. taxpayers, have made this flow of illegal immigrants possible. And yet oversight has remained absent, and Congress has not cracked down and insisted that recipients of funding not engage in promoting illegal immigration.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

Thank you, Mr. Krikorian. I now recognize Mr. Turner for his opening statement.

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

Madam Chairman Greene, Ranking Member Stansbury, good afternoon, and thank you for the opportunity to appear before the committee today. Three words often heard in tandem with DOGE are waste, fraud, and abuse, and I hope my testimony can shed light on the third word, abuse. I started my organization, Power the Future, to advocate for energy workers in rural America, and it has come to light that on the other side of that fight, the climate movement received billions from taxpayers, and that is the abuse I wish to highlight. The 2022 Inflation Reduction Act set aside hundreds of billions of dollars for the green agenda. The Environmental Protection Agency received tens of billions. As reported by the Washington Free Beacon, a staffer from an environmental group called the Coalition for Green Capital named Jahi Wise joined the Biden EPA to direct $27 billion in green funding. For context, $27 billion is larger than the budgets of the Departments of Treasury, Interior, and Commerce. Yet Mr. Jahi went through no confirmation process, and his decision to direct tens of billions to organizations of his choosing had no congressional oversight. And conveniently, under his tenure in this new EPA role, $5 billion was granted to his former organization, the Coalition for Green Capital. The abundance of green dollars created a new, pernicious mechanism: create a group for the sole purpose of getting government grants. For example, Power Forward Communities was only a few months old when it applied for and received nearly $9 billion to distribute at its own discretion. And one lucky recipient was an organization affiliated with two-time Georgia gubernatorial candidate Stacey Abrams. With only $100 in the bank, this group received $2 billion. Yes, it is legal to create a nonprofit, to get IRS accreditation, apply for and receive government grants, but it is fair to question the process and demand transparency. What does the application for a $9 billion grant look like, particularly when an organization has no staff, no history in the space, no office, and is only a few months old? A Department of Defense grant of this size would have layers of transparency. A Department of Transportation grant that size would require a bond to guarantee deliverables. Yet it seems that in the name of climate change, unvetted, unelected, unconfirmed bureaucrats require no safeguards. And this is the precedent of pernicious funding. Any future president can announce a slush fund, appoint loyalists to dole it out, and anyone can create a group to get government billions if they know the right people, bypassing that pesky thing called Congress. In his recent Senate hearing, Secretary of State Rubio said DOGE uncovered for every dollar spent at USAID, only $0.12 was actually received in aid. The rest was spent on overhead, high salaries, dinners, events, travel, raising awareness. You can call it overhead; a better term is grift. But this funding scandal is far worse in context, for at the same time the Biden administration was generously rewarding climate groups with billions, they enacted the most radical energy agenda in history, which punished the American people. Making energy expensive made life expensive. And we saw under the Biden administration record-high inflation, skyrocketing price of energy, gas, utilities, food, and consumer goods. It was bad enough to dole out billions, but to do it to the very groups making America unaffordable was a new low even for Washington, D.C. And unless this Congress changes the laws, the mechanisms are still in place to appropriate new funds using a new crisis, forming new groups, skirting Congress, and ripping off the taxpayers. Last week, my organization sent letters to this committee and Attorney General Bondi calling for an investigation into the Biden administration use of autopen on green executive orders, asking if Biden himself directed them or if the staff took leniencies. A very severe accusation, but made even more plausible in the light of this hearing. Abuse: abuse of the purse, abuse of the pen, all so that climate groups and their political allies could benefit. This is the very worst of Washington and why the American people have such little trust in government. For our nation to survive, Congress must restore trust in government, end the slush-fund abuse, stop the grift. And it is my sincere hope that my appearance here today can help begin the process. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

Thank you, Mr. Turner. I now recognize Ms. Yentel for her opening statement.

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Chairwoman Greene, Ranking Member Stansbury, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to share how America's charitable nonprofits serve communities across the country. From small towns to big cities, in every congressional district and state, nonprofits feed, heal, shelter, and nurture people of all walks of life and every political persuasion. From hospitals to libraries, churches to food banks, from veterans to schoolchildren, artists to researchers, charitable nonprofits touch and benefit all Americans all our lives. Nonprofits are local, accountable, transparent, and are nonpartisan by law and in practice. The vast majority of nonprofits are small- to mid-sized. 92% have budgets of less than $1 million. Nonprofits step in to fill gaps not met by government or other entities alone. They show up in times of crisis, providing disaster relief, hotlines, and safety from danger, and they meet everyday needs in local communities, from providing childcare and elder care, job training, or essential food and shelter. Simply put, the work of charitable nonprofits improves lives and strengthens communities and the country. Nonprofits represent the best of America, neighbors helping neighbors. Despite this essential work, nonprofits are at risk and under attack by this administration and by some in Congress. Across the country, nonprofits are having federal funding slashed or eliminated due to arbitrary cuts of congressionally approved spending and through reckless and unlawful federal funding freezes by the Trump administration. These actions are causing real harm. Food banks across the country, already struggling with high levels of need, are serving fewer meals due to spending cuts. Nonprofit health clinics have closed, leaving neighbors without access to potentially lifesaving care. Nonprofits focused on preventing violence and crime have seen their budgets disappear, putting a stop to critical work. After-school programs have been canceled, and school lunch programs are squeezed. Nonprofits that serve young mothers, respond to disasters, help address mental health or substance abuse, or operate child enrichment programs face funding shortfalls. And the threats to nonprofits are broader than federal funding. Senior members of this administration and some witnesses here today give egregious mischaracterizations of the work of nonprofits, even using dangerous rhetoric to vilify nonprofits. There are repeated threats against nonprofits that hold views that don't align with this administration, from statements calling for the illegal unilateral revoking of their tax-exempt status, to attempted takeovers, audits, and even threats of civil or criminal investigations by the federal government, not for any wrongdoing, but for doing work at odds with the administration's ideology. The administration's targeting of organizations and institutions with which it disagrees is a fundamentally un-American action and something that should concern us all. These actions aren't about government efficiency or about reform. They are attempted censorship disguised as accountability. This is weaponization of the federal government to chill dissent, and it is wrong whatever party is in control. In a functioning and healthy democracy, nonprofits must be free to identify and meet local needs without political interference, fear of retribution, or facing punishment for holding a different point of view from those in political power. Nonprofits are the backbone of our country, providing critical support to communities and saving lives. Defending and supporting their essential work shouldn't divide us along political lines. It should unite us as Americans. Thank you for the opportunity, and I look forward to your questions.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

I now recognize myself for 5 minutes of questioning. The American people definitely support nonprofits. But what they don't support is corruption, waste, fraud, and abuse. In 2024, right as the Biden administration was leaving office, the Democrats finalized the awards that amounted to 20 billion under its Greenhouse Gas Reduction Slush Fund to launder government funding to eight politically aligned nonprofits, several of which were newly created solely to join in on the massive grift. One of these awardees is Power Forward. Mr. Turner, you've spent a lot of time diving into leftist green NGOs. Was the NGO Power Forward just created a couple of years ago, yes or no?

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

Yes.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

In fiscal year 2023, did Power Forward report only $100 in revenue on their 990 financial disclosure form?

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

Yes.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

Is Power Forward slated to receive $2 billion in federal funding?

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

Yes, that's 20 million times revenue.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

Is it commonplace for completely new nonprofits with zero track record to receive a multibillion-dollar grant from the federal government?

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

There is no private entity that would give an organization 20 million times revenue after a few months of creation. Only government is stupid enough to do that.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

That's right. There's no business in America could get that loan from a bank. Is Rewiring America part of the same NGO coalition as Power Forward?

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

part of the same coalition, yes.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

Did Rewiring America hire Stacey Abrams?

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

She is affiliated with the organization. It's unclear in what capacity, but yes.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

Is she an energy expert?

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

No.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

So it's pretty eye-opening that a brand-new, politically connected group got such a massive federal grant. Rewiring America hired Stacey Abrams, as far as we know, a twice-failed candidate for Georgia governor and well-known Democrat activist, even though she has little to no knowledge of energy policy. But the leader of Power Forward praised Abrams for playing a pivotal role in securing these billions. Notably, Abrams' PAC spent over $126 million on Democrat campaigns over the last 5 years. This recirculation of taxpayer funds literally is the Democrats' circle of life. Mr. Krikorian, we witnessed the worst border immigration catastrophe under the Biden administration. It seems to me that many immigration-oriented NGOs have double-dipped their hands in taxpayer money. My first question is, how influential were the American taxpayer-funded NGOs at facilitating the movement of illegal aliens to and through our country's borders?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

extremely influential. Now, some of this would have happened anyway because of the Biden administration's invitation to mass illegal immigration. But the invitation required some means of this happening, some means of doing it. And so what it did is the taxpayer money essentially turned the illegal immigration crisis up to 11. It would have existed otherwise, but it was significantly magnified by this government funding,

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

by the Biden administration policies. Right. You've mentioned that the United Nations pays psychologists to help illegal aliens reverse asylum denials on appeal. Specifically, tax dollars go to the UN, which directs and pays psychologists to help illegal aliens unearth repressed memories of torture, persecution, and human rights violation so that they can legally claim asylum. Is this an intentional effort to subvert our immigration laws by creating fake narratives for asylum seekers?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

I can't put myself into someone else's head, but I can't imagine any other plausible way to describe it. And initially, just to be clear, they use this to get Mexican asylum, which they use as a kind of trampoline to get to the United States, and then present those repressed memory documents as part of their evidence when they are in removal proceedings as part of their asylum claims.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

And do they provide legal help to, to apply for asylum claims?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

That's inside the United States. So that's beyond the scope of my testimony here.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

Thank you. Mr. Walter, you've been investigating NGO funding sources for a long time. Do you know of other examples of former elected or appointed officials in the NGO sector securing significant federal tax dollars through grants or contracts?

Mr. Scott WalterSPEAKER_19

Well, we've had mentioned here the $2 billion slush fund, and of course, the OMB and HUD Director Shaun Donovan has been mixed up in that. And then of course,

SPEAKER_UNKNOWN

I—

Mr. Scott WalterSPEAKER_19

There have been public reports as well about the millions of dollars that the wife of Senator Sheldon Whitehouse has received from NGOs whose legislation he's helped push.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

Yeah. Thank you. My time has expired, and thank you all for being here. I now recognize Ranking Member Stansbury for 5 minutes of questions.

Ranking Member Melanie Stansbury (D-NM)SPEAKER_18

Thank you so much, Madam Chairwoman. And I want to welcome back some of our guests here today. Mr. Krikorian, I recognize you from last summer when you came to testify. Welcome back. Just want to clarify, you served on the board for Project 2025, is that correct?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

I don't think I was on a board. We were one of the advisors for it, but yeah.

Ranking Member Melanie Stansbury (D-NM)SPEAKER_18

Yes, you served in an advisory role on Project 2025. I appreciate that. And Mr. Walter, I just want to clarify a few things about Capital Research Center. This is the organization that acted as a fiscal sponsor for Ginni Thomas's nonprofit, correct?

Mr. Scott WalterSPEAKER_19

For a project that she was one of many people involved with, yes.

Ranking Member Melanie Stansbury (D-NM)SPEAKER_18

Yes. And this is Ginni Thomas, Justice Clarence Thomas's wife. And my understanding is that there was a donor-advised fund that was the primary donor to that funding under your fiscal sponsorship. In fact, it looks like about $400,000 was channeled through your organization. And if I'm correct, based on what I see here, the primary donors are the Koch brothers, the Searles, the Mercers, oh, and Leonard Leo. And some of you may recall Leonard Leo because, of course, he's at the center of many of the big issues around Supreme Court ethics, but also, you all may recognize him because last week Donald Trump called him a sleazebag who probably hates America for his interference in the judiciary and his efforts to try to undermine what Donald Trump is trying to do. So a very interesting cast of characters indeed. And Mr. Turner, as I understand it, you're a former employee of the Koch Institute, correctly?

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

Yes.

Ranking Member Melanie Stansbury (D-NM)SPEAKER_18

All right, so I think, you know, these are always very interesting hearings we have in the Oversight Committee. We have some retreads of some witnesses who've been here before, all of which are participants in organizations that were involved in Project 2025 that are funded through the same dark money networks and organizations of the Koch brothers and Leonard Leo and the Searles and the Mercers who fund all this stuff: Project 2025, the stuff that's happening in front of the Supreme Court rolling back our rights, that helped to get, you know, over 70 Project 2025 authors placed in the administration acting in high-level roles right now that are bringing cases in front of the Supreme Court undermining our democracy and which are attacking organizations who are working on civil society programs. So, I think I already said this, but I think it's very clear what is going on here. And I want to point out that the project that Ms. Ginni Thomas was fundraising for through Capital Research Center—let's see, what was the direct quote—literally was formed with the mission to attack the left, to wage a culture war against the left. So I think we can see what's going on here. But this is not a joke, right? Ms. Yentel, you're here in your role of helping to advise nonprofit organizations and provide institutional infrastructure. I know there's been a number of untrue things said here today, both about your own professional background as well as the affiliated organizations that help to support our small nonprofits across the country. But I think it is really important, and this is a message we want to drive home today, that the attacks on nonprofit organizations that the Trump administration is undertaking, including trying to find executive authority to take away tax-exempt status, are both illegal and immoral. Would you agree?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Excuse me. Thank you for the question. Yes, it is illegal for the president or any member of the executive office to direct the IRS to make any changes to the tax status of an individual or an organization. And in fact, the law makes clear that if the president threatens to revoke tax-exempt status from an individual or organization, they can be convicted, up to 5 years in prison.

Ranking Member Melanie Stansbury (D-NM)SPEAKER_18

And so could you please tell us, we want to make sure that for any nonprofit watching, because I know there are probably hundreds if not thousands across the country because they're deeply concerned of what might be coming, what should nonprofits be doing to prepare if DOGE or the administration tries to either infiltrate or take away their status?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Well, nonprofits should know that that's illegal, and they do. That's part of what we've been working to educate nonprofits. But mostly what nonprofits should continue to do is the incredibly important, vital work that they do in communities and to try not to be distracted by threats and unlawful actions by the president. Nonprofit organizations are local. They are transparent, accountable. They are nonpartisan, and they do vital work in communities with communities, identifying and prioritizing local needs and then working with the communities to meet those needs in ways that the government and other private entities don't.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

The gentlelady's time has expired. I now recognize the chairman of Oversight, Mr. Comer from Kentucky.

Full Committee Chairman James Comer (R-KY)SPEAKER_06

Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Turner, I've launched an investigation, or the committee has, we all have, into the role of former senior White House officials in possibly abusing the authority of former President Joe Biden while the former president was rapidly deteriorating mentally and physically. We will be conducting transcribed interviews of a number of former White House officials to understand who was really making the decisions for President Biden. Your group, Power The Future, has expressed concerns that over half a dozen of the Biden administration executive actions, which were signed by the autopen, related to climate policies, should be deemed null and void, again, due to the fact that they were signed by the autopen without any public comment from President Biden confirming his knowledge of them. Now, why is it important that the American people know the truth about whether President Biden knowingly signed these orders, making significant and drastic shifts in our energy policy?

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

Thank you for the question, sir. We're looking at this from the sense of deceit of the American people. This is impersonation of the president. Staffers, of course, have a lot of leniency in what they do working on behalf of the president. But these executive orders that we identified, there's no evidence of Joe Biden in first person, in his voice as president, talking about them. And I see some Pennsylvanians on the panel. When you ban the export of liquid natural gas and you never get asked about it in person, one has to wonder if Joe Biden did it or if his staffer did it on his

Full Committee Chairman James Comer (R-KY)SPEAKER_06

you specifically expressed concern that President Biden was not aware of that specific action to implement the executive order pausing liquefied natural gas permits. Now, why are you specifically concerned the president was unaware of that specific order?

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

Well, there's an anecdote from earlier this year where Speaker of the House Johnson mentioned he was in conversation with President Biden and brought it up, and the president said, I don't know what you're talking about. At the time, that was understood as, wow, maybe the president's a little worse off than we realized. But maybe two things can be true. Maybe he really didn't know what Speaker Johnson was talking about. Maybe he had no idea he passed this executive order. And if the president has never asked about it and he hides from the press and there's no opportunity for him to get asked in public about it, how do we know he actually did it? And these are serious executive orders. This is

Full Committee Chairman James Comer (R-KY)SPEAKER_06

not It is bizarre. You know, when President Trump signed his executive orders, we saw him sign the executive orders. He had a big event. They were talking about the executive orders. They said, this is what this specific executive order is. We never saw any of that.

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

No. And lives were destroyed, sir. And when you ban the export of liquefied natural gas, there are hundreds of thousands of men and women who work in the natural gas industry. Lives are destroyed. People went bankrupt because of that. And we have no evidence that Joe Biden himself actually— we

Full Committee Chairman James Comer (R-KY)SPEAKER_06

haven't found any evidence either that—and ironically, unlike some of the investigations we've done in the past with respect to the former president, not many of the colleagues on the other side of the aisle are disputing many of the the things that have come out in the Tapper book, the things that have come out with statements like what former Transportation Secretary Buttigieg and others have said, that they were shielded from the president. So we look forward to having these staffers come in. Our committee will be conducting transcribed interviews, possibly depositions, depending on how quickly they they come in. And hopefully we'll get the truth to the American people. I want to switch gears and talk about the the NGOs. The full committee has another investigation into the green energy scam—I don't know how else to put it—known as the Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund and the NGOs that receive significant amounts of money through it. Can you tell us a little bit about about this and the NGOs and the left? Obviously, they advocate for initiatives as an excuse to spend billions in local communities, but enrich themselves, too. Who else benefits from these from these handouts? Every Democrat—I know Ms. Stansbury loves government programs. They love to spend money and create bureaucracies. But who really benefits from programs like this specific scam that I talked about?

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

The operatives aligned to, to, to these organizations— consultancy groups, PR firms, lawyers, uh, and, and it's all just an enormous cabal. That sounds like

Full Committee Chairman James Comer (R-KY)SPEAKER_06

a base for one of the 2 political parties.

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

100%.

Full Committee Chairman James Comer (R-KY)SPEAKER_06

Yeah. Uh, well, thank you very much. Uh, we look forward to, to, uh, this committee working to get the truth to the American people and try to get spending under control. And, you know, we're going to see if these, if these executive orders were really authorized by the president or if this was, was being done unilaterally by some unnamed bureaucrats. Madam Chair, thank you for this subcommittee hearing. I yield back.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

Thank you. The gentleman yields, and I now recognize Ms. Norton from Washington, D.C.

Rep. Eleanor Norton (D-DC)SPEAKER_00

Thank you, Madam Chair. Today's hearing is yet another attempt to rationalize the repeated attempts by the Trump administration to destroy the ability of the federal government to address the needs of the American people. Spending months denigrating federal employees and gutting the civil service is not enough for the administration. The president is also attacking universities, law firms, nonprofit groups, and charities in a desperate attempt to control civil society, silence dissent, and seize absolute power. Ms. Yentel, we have heard Committee Republicans and their witnesses attempt to villainize NGOs today because they do not want to say what they are really attacking: charitable nonprofits. What are nonprofit organizations, and what kinds of work do they do in local communities?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Thank you for the question, Congresswoman. Nonprofit organizations are local, transparent, accountable. They are predominantly small or mid-sized, about 92% of nonprofit organizations have budgets of less than $1 million. So they are experts at stretching every dollar for the biggest impact in communities. And they are predominantly in local communities, working with communities to identify and prioritize needs, and then working to meet those needs with the communities. Nonprofits step in to fill gaps. That are left by— that the federal government and private entities on their own can't meet. So often they partner with government to do the work that they're doing. And they show up in times of crisis. They provide vital disaster relief assistance. They staff mental health hotlines. They provide safety from danger. They also show up in communities to meet our everyday needs, from childcare to elder care, from libraries to food banks, to providing essential shelter. So nonprofits really meet the needs of all Americans throughout our lives, and virtually all of us are touched by and benefit from a nonprofit in our local community.

Rep. Eleanor Norton (D-DC)SPEAKER_00

Are nonprofits partisan organizations, as the majority has tried to claim today?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

No, nonprofit organizations are nonpartisan, both by law and in practice.

Rep. Eleanor Norton (D-DC)SPEAKER_00

These attempts by the administration to make it clear that they do not want nonprofits to protect— to provide expert services that protect the local needs and goals of our communities, just as they do not want a government with a qualified, nonpartisan, merit-based federal workforce. Instead, the administration wants a patronage system with services provided only by and for those who share their political views. Trump's attacks on nonprofits come while his allies in Congress cut government services that support the most vulnerable in our society. Ms. Yentel, you have referred to nonprofits as America's backbone. How do nonprofit organizations fill gaps in government services to meet local needs?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Well, nonprofit organizations show up to meet local needs in many ways. And the federal government, of course, Congress appropriates funding, and some, not all, but some nonprofit organizations apply for, through very rigorous processes, to receive federal funding. And if they're found to be eligible, and if they're found to be able to meet the rigorous oversight and accountability requirements to receive those funds, they do. And then they put those dollars to good work in local communities meeting a whole spectrum of needs that are identified by the community. But it's important to know, too, that nonprofits earn these funds from the federal government through the work that they do and also have a diversified revenue source. So about 27% of nonprofits receive federal funding, earn federal funding for the work that they do. Those nonprofits and the nonprofits that don't receive their funding from a variety of sources, all of them dedicated to meeting local needs and working with the community to— to— the

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

gentlelady's time has expired. I now recognize Mr. Cloud from Texas.

Rep. Michael Cloud (R-TX)SPEAKER_04

Thank you, Chairwoman. And I think it's important at the outset to kind of level set on the language being used, because there seems to be an intentional attempt at creating a smokescreen about what we're talking about today in order to confuse people. Indeed, the ranking member tried to equate private donations going to conservative organizations with taxpayer dollars going to leftist organizations, as if that was the same thing. And even as you talk about charitable NGOs, we're all for charitable NGOs, and a lot of what you're saying is true about the vast majority of NGOs, but there's 120,000 of them, as you mentioned, and not all of them are that wonderful. And to the point, Republicans historically, decades over decades, have far outpaced Democrats in their charitable giving. As a matter of fact, scripture gives a definition of what charity is. Each of you should give exactly what you've decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion. God loves a cheerful giver. We're all about charity, but charity isn't given at the strong-arm mandate of the federal government requiring taxpayers. That's not charity, that is taxes. That's a completely different thing. And so what we're going after today is taxpayer dollars going to NGOs that are doing bad work. Indeed, so many of these organizations do have a high percentage. I appreciate what you said, Mr. Walter. You called them basically government organizations. I've thought of them in a sense as quasi-government organizations. Many of these have been stood up in a sense because it adds one more layer away from accountability on the taxpayer dollars. For example, we had Secretary Mayorkas coming here claiming plausible deniability on much of the stuff that was happening at our border. Why? Because the dollars go to an NGO who's doing the work. And so if they're giving out Sodexo cards to illegal immigrants to incentivize them coming into the United States, I don't know anything about that. It's an NGO doing that. And then when we send that through the UN as another kind of filter away from accountability, it muddies the waters even more. And so as the Department of Government Efficiency and the DOGE subcommittee here, we're working to bring transparency to this process. One of the things I wanted to mention was Endeavors. Endeavors was stood up as part of this illegal immigration scheme and this entire industry that was created. Endeavors, I think, approximately had maybe a $40 million operating budget. And you had a gentleman by the name of Lorenzen-Strait, who was on the Biden transition committee, who suddenly found himself on the Endeavors board. And normally when a government puts out a request for proposal, then you're supposed to get multiple sources. Here, the government didn't even put out a request for proposal. He came and presented a proposal and got a $530 million contract from the federal government, followed by an $87 million contract. So 90% or more of the income was coming from the federal government. To me, this ceases to be an NGO. Mr. Walter, you spoke to that. Could you narrow down what we're talking about here when we talk about these NGOs? How many are there that are like this, where much of their income is from taxpayer dollars?

Mr. Scott WalterSPEAKER_19

Shockingly, there are at least 35,000 NGOs that receive most of their money from government. And thank you, by the way, for mentioning that, yes, the ranking member attacked a charity that supports my organization. So I don't understand why Ms. Yentel didn't upbraid her for that.

Rep. Michael Cloud (R-TX)SPEAKER_04

Well, one of the things that DOGE is uncovering, it's it's shocking that that this is— you would think that this would be an issue across the lines, that you have a lack of transparency on taxpayer dollars. But it would seem that many on the left are content with the fact that this is a feature of the system, not not a bug of the system. We're working to get that out. Mr. Krikorian, I wanted to see if you could bring light as to how this NGO apparatus helped enable cartels to profit and also helped to incentivize illegal immigration into our country.

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

What the nonprofits did, and the and the UN, again funded in part by the U.S. government, was make it possible for people to move through because these are people without don't have a lot of money anyway. And so by providing them cash, literally envelopes of cash sometimes, as well as cash cards, food, supplies, etc., they made it possible for people to move. And who were the smugglers making money off of this? Many of them were actually drug smuggling organizations who either just collected a toll or in some cases, as we saw in Colombia, were integrally part of the smuggling operation. So this was they were clearly working with these cartel and smuggling organizations, which were enriched by this flow of illegal immigration.

Mr. Scott WalterSPEAKER_19

Thank you, Chair.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

The gentlewoman's time has expired. I now recognize Mr. Lynch from Massachusetts for 5 minutes.

Rep. Stephen Lynch (D-MA)SPEAKER_08

Thank you, Madam Chair and the ranking member. Also, I'd like to thank the witnesses for their willingness to come before the committee and help us with our work. Madam Chair, I just want to describe a couple of documents that I'm going to ask to have submitted into the record by unanimous consent. One is entitled is the New York Times article dated March 16th. The title is Investigators See No Criminality by EPA Officials in the Case of Biden-Era Grants.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

Without objection, so ordered.

Rep. Stephen Lynch (D-MA)SPEAKER_08

I'm still going to describe it. Thank you. And it the subhead says, a contentious investigation that questioned the legality of EPA grants has found very little to even suggest that government employees violated the law. The second is a Washington Post article entitled Trump's False Claims That Stacey Adams Headed a Group That Got 1.9 Billion.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

Without objection, so ordered.

Rep. Stephen Lynch (D-MA)SPEAKER_08

Thank you so much, Madam Chair. And uh, I'll I'll sum up by saying that that allegation got 4 Pinocchios. All right, so, Ms. Yentel, President Trump, Elon Musk, and DOGE have decimated essential services, lifeline programs and services that millions of Americans rely on for food, for affordable housing, and for healthcare. Just yesterday, Ranking Member Rosa DeLauro of Connecticut of the House Appropriations Committee reported detailed information indicating that Trump administration is freezing at least $425 billion in federal funding that Congress had already approved for communities in Democratic and Republican districts nationwide for critical services and programs that serve all Americans. Some of the funding that has been frozen or terminated by the Trump administration includes $3.8 billion frozen for justice programs, including grants that support community policing, COPS programs, victim services, including the Violence Against Women programs that operate nationally. Also, $770 million terminated for NIH grants that support Alzheimer's, cancer, diabetes, and women's health research. He also froze or actually terminated $1 billion for states to support substance abuse treatment and mental health services. And this is not lastly, but this is the last on my list: $6.1 billion frozen or terminated to support cutting-edge scientific and biomedical research at higher education institutions. One of those programs is run by Professor Joan Brugge. She has a research team at Harvard University. She's working on early detection protocols for ovarian cancer. One of the tough things about ovarian cancer and why it's so deadly is that there are no early detection methods. So Joan Brugge actually is working on identifying precursors that allow early detection of ovarian cancer, which affects about 20,000 women every single year. So when we think about this reconciliation bill and the rescissions that are going on here for funding for a lot of these not-for-profits and charitable institutions, what's the impact of that on those individual organizations and the work that they do?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Thank you, Congressman. All of these cuts, these arbitrary and often unlawful, illegal cuts to congressionally appropriated funding, are doing real harm to your constituents, to the constituents of everybody on this committee and throughout Congress. And if I could just for a moment to say, in response to what the previous congressman been raised. He's absolutely right that nonprofit organizations enjoy strong bipartisan support, and there are many Republican champions for nonprofits. I know there are Republicans on this committee and throughout Congress that serve on boards of nonprofits, that volunteer their hours for nonprofits. That's exactly right. And this isn't a smokescreen. This is who nonprofits are. And the work that they do is essential. And when funding— this federal funding is cut that nonprofits use to meet local community needs, it harms Americans. You mentioned the cuts to justice spending. That means organizations that are working to prevent crime are having their budgets slashed. We're seeing nonprofit health clinics have to shut their doors. We're seeing food banks who are already— The

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

gentleman's time's expired. I now recognize Mr. Fallon from Texas for 5 minutes.

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

Thank you, Madam Chair. I also want to recognize that we have the chairman of DOGE Texas, Giovanni Capriglione, is with us today. Ms. Yentel, you are currently the— I want to get this right— the CEO of the National Council of Nonprofits. Am I right?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Yes, that's right.

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

And you were former president of the National Low Income Housing Coalition?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Correct.

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

Okay. Uh In your current job as the CEO of the National Council of Nonprofits, are you familiar with the nonprofit that has been mentioned here up on the dais, the Power Forward Communities?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I am.

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

You have? Okay. Yep And that five organizations led the Power Forward, and one of them was— were you familiar with Rewiring America?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Yes.

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

And do you know that Stacey Abrams was their counsel, lead counsel?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I believe she was an advisor. She

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

Well, I have it right here. It says that she was—this is from their press release. She was their senior counsel. Okay Stacey Abrams ran for governor of Georgia. What party? Do you know? Are you aware?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Yes, she's a Democrat.

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

Democrat. Okay. And in 2022, she was also the Democratic candidate for governor of Georgia.

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I think that's— I'm sure it's true if you're saying it.

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

And she worked with, as we just mentioned, Rewiring America in 2023. Power Forward had a balance of— do you know what the balance was in 2023? You mentioned up here earlier, it was $100. And then, and of course we know in 2020, are you also aware Stacey Abrams campaigned for Joe Biden for president?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

If you say

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

Yeah, she was, and she is a Democrat. So, Ms. Yentel,

Rep. Stephen Lynch (D-MA)SPEAKER_08

would the gentleman yield?

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

No, I don't have enough time. I would if you give me an extra minute. Okay. Okay Ms. Yentel, CEO of the National Council of Nonprofits,

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Yes.

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

How much did Joe Biden, his administration give—Stacey Abrams campaigned for Joe Biden. How much did they give to Power Forward?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

So I'm so glad to have a chance to address the— You

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

know how much it was?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Egregious mischaracterization.

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

Okay. Was it $2 billion?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I don't know the number. Okay.

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

It was $2 billion. Okay. That's quite a bump from a C-note to $2 billion. How did the Biden administration justify this gift? Do you know?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

So what happened

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

to the

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

money? Thank you. So many of these organizations— well, ma'am, do you know

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

how? I don't have the time. Funding. Okay. You don't know?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I know. I would love to answer the question.

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

Was it for green? No. Was it? Well, I'm trying to help you because I don't have enough time. Green energy grants.

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

May I answer the question, sir?

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

You got 10 seconds. Could you answer the question? Do you know what it was for?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

These were coalitions of longstanding organizations. Okay.

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

So you're not going to answer the question? It was for green energy grants. Once Stacey Abrams got that money, it just so happens that two other nonprofits that she founded, Fair Count—have you ever heard of that one?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

So I'm here

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

to support

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

4 nonprofit organizations. Okay, you

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

don't know.

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

So no, Madam Chair,

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

I reclaim my time.

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

With views separate from the administration.

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

Please freeze the time. You're here to testify and answer questions, and you will not answer the questions. You don't know what Fair Count is. I ask the question, do you know or not?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

No.

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

Have you ever heard of it? You've never heard of it? Okay. It's a voter mobilization group for Black voters that has nothing whatsoever to do with green energy. And, you know, just so happens as a mystery of the universe, it's a coincidence that the president of that organization is a gal named let's see where her name is. Her name is Jeanine McClain. Her middle name is Abrams because that's her maiden name. She's Stacey Abrams' sister. It's a miracle. You want to talk about incestuous. The Tides Center also was running an organization called Southern Economic Advancement Project. They got money as well, and they fund a lot of Hamas protest groups across the country. So this is incestuous, Madam Chair. It's back dealing, money laundering from nonprofits. Everyone up on this dais supports true charitable nonprofits, not political nonprofits who are basically government organizations, because it's funneling money into the pockets of Democratic activists, nothing more. Case in point, Ms. Yentel, what is your total annual compensation?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I don't see how that's relevant, but if you're interested, it's public information, which is evidence of the accountability and transparency that nonprofits adhere to.

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

Yes, your predecessor made $583,000. I suspect you get something similar.

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I do not.

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

So you don't?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

That is not my salary.

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

Okay, but that's what your predecessor was, because as you said, it's publicly traded or publicly available information.

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Yes.

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

When you were the president of the, ironically, National Low Income Housing Coalition, what was your annual compensation?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

That's not quite right, but would you like to—

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

it was $399,000.

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Executive salaries? It

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

was $399,000, was it not?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

No,

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

it was not. That's what it says. You're under oath.

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I see that it says that. That was not my salary. Thank you.

Rep. Pat Fallon (R-TX)SPEAKER_13

Okay, so, all right, well, we'll check that out. Madam Chair, I yield back.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

now recognize Mr. Garcia from California.

Rep. Robert Garcia (D-CA)SPEAKER_10

Thank you, Madam Chair. We're obviously here for another hearing which has literally nothing to do with government efficiency. This committee, of course, has talked about fencing. We've gone after foreign aid, and now we're going after community nonprofits which actually help and support people. And our committee is doing all of this without ever once getting testimony from Elon Musk, the head of DOGE, of which, of course, this committee is now named from, and of course, who's now apparently leaving the White House as well. Now, every Democrat on this subcommittee voted to subpoena Elon Musk so he could come here and testify and be accountable to Congress. But that was blocked by our Republican colleagues, which, of course, in and of itself is irresponsible and outrageous. And you would think that Republicans on this committee would want Elon Musk to testify just as much as we do. Now, all our Republican colleagues might also want to ask Elon Musk about this message, which he actually just posted yesterday. Now, I'm going to read this message Elon Musk posted. It says, "I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore. This massive, outrageous, pork-filled congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination." And I'll emphasize: Shame on those who voted for it. You know you did wrong. You know it. Now, this was actually just yesterday he actually posted this, which is pretty rough if you ask me. And on top of that, I would have printed it out, but just 20 minutes ago, he posted another message that says, Call your senator. Call your congressman. Bankrupting America is not okay. Kill the bill. And, of course, we know the only people who voted for this bill are actually House Republicans, including every Republican in this room. All these Republicans here on this committee, they all voted for this bill that now Elon Musk is saying should be killed and is saying is awful. I actually agree with Elon Musk on this. It takes health care away from 13 million Americans. It cuts food for veterans and seniors, all to finance, of course, huge tax breaks for the wealthy. Now, it's also interesting, because Chairwoman Greene, I understand, now regrets voting for this bill, as she mentioned yesterday. Is that correct, Chairwoman Greene?

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

Are you yielding me time?

Rep. Robert Garcia (D-CA)SPEAKER_10

No, I'm just asking if you are. You— I think you say now you regret voting for the bill. Is that correct?

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

The bill actually destroys what you guys voted for for the past 4 years. And I'm proud to have voted for that bill to fund border security,

Rep. Robert Garcia (D-CA)SPEAKER_10

actually, to deport all these

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

illegals you guys let in.

Rep. Robert Garcia (D-CA)SPEAKER_10

Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Actually, Chairman, And yesterday you actually said that you regret actually voting for the bill. You posted after Elon's tweet that you didn't know certain provisions were in it and that you would have voted no if you had known, and so obviously you didn't do a thorough review of the bill. And I'm not surprised, of course, that Republicans in this Congress are now going back and forth on the bill. They voted for the bill. Now they want to oppose it. We don't know what to actually believe. And for instance, this is the same thing that's happening with other big programs like Social Security, which we know Elon Musk and DOGE have actually talked and attacked constantly over and over again. We know how badly already customer service has been hurt. People are waiting in long lines at Social Security offices all because of these DOGE efforts. Now, again, Chairwoman Greene invited to testify today one of our witnesses, and I think it's important to note this. Mr. Turner, you're one of our witnesses today, an expert on economics and a bunch of other things. Mr. Turner, you were invited to testify as an expert on government spending. This is your post. Is this correct? Did you post this, sir?

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

Yes, sir.

Rep. Robert Garcia (D-CA)SPEAKER_10

Okay. You called Social Security a Ponzi scheme, 100 which we know Elon Musk has also done. I'm glad you admitted it. Social Security is a government-sponsored Ponzi scheme, as you said. Now,

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

what about the second part, though, sir? I should be able to keep 100% of my—

Rep. Robert Garcia (D-CA)SPEAKER_10

you can read the— you can read the money

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

and not watch government waste it giving $9 billion.

Rep. Robert Garcia (D-CA)SPEAKER_10

Thank you, sir. Giving

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

$9 billion to

Rep. Robert Garcia (D-CA)SPEAKER_10

climate groups. Claiming my time, Madam Chairwoman. Thank you. Thank you, sir. A Ponzi scheme. And so I think it's interesting, of course, that, as one of our Republican witnesses is calling Social Security a Ponzi scheme, and that's the person that we should be taking advice from here today. Without Social Security, 22 million people would be pushed into poverty. That includes over 16 million seniors and nearly 1 million children. And, in fact, Elon Musk has also said and agreed with you, sir, that this is a Ponzi scheme. I think it's ironic that you are one of our witnesses talking about efficiency when you want to attack the single best program that we have to support people, not just out of poverty, but across this country, to uplift them, to ensure they can afford a decent life. We on this committee need to work every single day not just to protect Social Security, but to hold Republicans accountable for attacking Medicare, Medicaid, for attacking Social Security and the programs that we all depend on. With that, I yield back. Thank you.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

The gentleman yields. I now recognize Mr. Timmons from South Carolina.

Rep. William Timmons (R-SC)SPEAKER_03

Thank you, Madam Chair. It's hard to remember why we're here given all the conversations we're having, but we're here because we have $37 trillion in debt and we run a $1.8 trillion annual deficit. And we're here to seek out waste, fraud, and abuse, deliver on government efficiency, and try to right the fiscal ship of this country so we can have a country for another generation or two. So we're doing great work. We had a hearing a couple weeks ago with NPR and PBS, and we made clear to the American people that those two entities were not deserving of taxpayer dollars because they were not doing their job. They were wildly biased. They were wildly biased. And because of that, they do not deserve taxpayer funds. So we're going to vote next week to stop giving them money. And we're going along the same lines with with this hearing, because the EPA handed out $27 billion in the the last year of the Biden administration. And it was done really because they thought they were going to lose the election and they wanted to get out as quickly as possible. Biden appointees in the EPA specifically said that the people that were getting the money weren't really weren't deserving of that money, and there were a lot of concerns there. Obviously, we have this conversation about one of the most egregious, which is Power Forward Communities. We keep talking about it. And Madam Chair, I'd like to enter their 990 in for the record.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

Without objection, so ordered.

Rep. William Timmons (R-SC)SPEAKER_03

So this is from 2023. This is a less than a year-old entity. And as we've talked again and again, they had $100 in their account and then the EPA, under the Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund, gave them $2 billion. Well, the funny thing is, is they didn't give it all to them. They wanted to get it all, but the EPA said no. And so now we're in this lawsuit where Citibank has the vast majority of it, and we're going to get it back. And that's why we're here. We're going to pass legislation. This is the hearing to show why this is ridiculous. This is, I would just say, waste. Maybe you could call it fraud. I don't know. It's definitely an abuse. So this money is coming back, and this is the hearing to then warrant the the the rescission. And we're going to have a vote in a couple of weeks, and that's what we're doing. And that's why we're here, because we cannot spend money on ridiculous policies. Mr. Turner, do you agree with me? Are we moving in the right direction here?

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

Yes. And it's critical that we move in this direction. Thank you, sir.

Rep. William Timmons (R-SC)SPEAKER_03

And this is just for the EPA. We haven't even gotten into the border security nonsense. The invasion that was funded by taxpayer dollars over the last 4 years, the Biden administration intentionally and systematically incentivized people to come into this country without knowing any idea who they were. And the best part is is they're making Americans get these ridiculous vaccines, which we're going to talk about in a couple of weeks, but they don't have any tests for whether the people, the 20 million people they brought in this country, are vaccinated. The irony is just in so back to the issue at hand. Power Forward Communities should not have $2 billion. Mr. Walter, do you agree that it is an egregious waste of taxpayer dollars to give $2 billion to a bunch of former Obama and Biden high-level employees?

Mr. Scott WalterSPEAKER_19

Absolutely.

Rep. William Timmons (R-SC)SPEAKER_03

I'll give you a better one. Do you think that they would have gotten this money if they were not the former HUD secretary, the former OMB director, the special assistant to Obama, the former Fannie Mae head for Obama? Do you think that if we just got a random group of Americans and said, Hey, you want to go give clean energy appliances to reduce the carbon footprint of our country to a bunch of poor people? Do you want to go do that? Do you want to apply, and we'll give you $2 billion? Mr. Walter, is there any world in which the EPA would have given a random group of people $2 billion?

Mr. Scott WalterSPEAKER_19

Not at all. And that is a critical part of the NGO sector in addition to the heroes who actually do charitable work.

Rep. William Timmons (R-SC)SPEAKER_03

I'll give you one better. Mr. Turner, should we be giving billions of dollars to 501(c)(3)s that have zero other income? 35,000 501(c)(3)s have zero other income. They're all government income. Should we do that?

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

No, sir. And if I may, the egregious thing here is that they are bypassing the Congress. If you want to give Stacey Abrams $2 billion, appropriate it. But they are using this process to bypass Congress because no one would put their name on a bill to give Stacey Abrams $2

Rep. William Timmons (R-SC)SPEAKER_03

billion. And I'm going to end with this. Dozens, dozens of 501s, tax-exempt organizations, organizations that we feel are pursuing some benevolent in a goal to improve the lives of Americans. Dozens of these 501s, their CEOs make more than $10 million a year in salary. We got to change this. I put that in the waste, the fraud, and the abuse category, and we need to pass a law to make that better. Thank you, Madam Chair. I yield back.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

Thank you. I now recognize Ms. Crockett from Texas.

Rep. Jasmine Crockett (D-TX)SPEAKER_01

Thank you so much, Madam Chair. It is interesting that we're talking about bypassing Congress. It seems like that's all that has happened actually this Congress. In fact, it's why we've had to spend so much time in courts. And thank God that we at least have one branch of government that has decided not to abdicate their duties and has decided that there are things such as, you know, impoundment. And so when Congress does make a decision, or does sign something into law, or has been signed into law by a president, that you can't just bring in your good little friend who helped you get elected to the tune of $300 billion, or $300 million, and say, Hey guy, you get to do whatever you want to, despite what these duly elected people have done. But I digress. But I am going to get back to Elon, cuz Elon is looming over every single DOGE hearing. You know why? Because that's supposedly what Elon was heading up, but now they don't want to talk about Elon. Cuz Elon now is a little upset. There's a family spat that's obviously going on, and it is going to play out, it seems like, all over Twitter. But nevertheless, let's talk about some of the things that we should be talking about. And you know what? Every time I come in here, I really do wonder, what is the point? Like, why are we here? Because it doesn't seem like we're doing efficiency, right? Like, have we seen Elon? No. Have we seen anybody that works for DOGE? No. But we're in the DOGE Subcommittee and we're talking to everybody but the DOGE people. So to hear the comments about Stacey Abrams, it really got me going. And a lot of times when we come into this hearing room, it's all about politics. And it made me think that there was an issue most likely with Stacey because someone actually brought up the fact that Stacey has run for governor a couple of times, and it seems like there's a gubernatorial race that's coming up in Georgia, and nobody knows whether or not Stacey is going to run. So why not muddy the water, if we can, to hopefully keep a strong Black woman down? But again, I digress. So let's talk about the things that we could be talking about while we sit here in the DOGE Committee. It seems like we could be talking about, you know, things like efficiency or oversight. When announcing this hearing, the chairwoman stated the DOGE Subcommittee would, quote, continue bringing long overdue transparency and accountability to those who abuse tax dollars. But so far this Congress, Republicans have focused their oversight responsibilities on things like defunding Big Bird, as well as attacking, of course, trans kids, cuz they're really the big threat that we have. We could be talking about how the Trump administration is ignoring these court orders, deporting American citizens, or targeting members of Congress for prosecution, or how Trump signed an order deregulating the cryptocurrency industry just as his family launched a digital currency. We could be having a hearing on how Trump fired members of the National Labor Relations Board for bringing a suit against Elon Musk, or how the Trump administration dismantled the Office of Federal Contract Compliance while the office was investigating Tesla for alleged racial harassment, or how Trump dropped lawsuits against numerous large companies after they donated to his inaugural fund. We could have a hearing on whether Trump violated the Emoluments Clause when he not only—it seemed like he asked for a $400 million jet from a foreign government. Trump has put a for sale sign on the lawn of the White House and has allowed wealthy donors to dictate how the government operates. That's what we should be having a hearing about, but nope. They're here attacking nonprofits that deliver food to seniors and disabled folk, provide childcare and eldercare for working families, job training for teens, and shelter for the unhoused. The Republicans and their witnesses have accused nonprofits of being, quote, radical and, quote, addicted to government money. And listen, I try to find agreement where I can, so I am going to say that I absolutely do agree with that statement to a certain extent, because there is a nonprofit by the name of the Heritage Foundation. And last time I checked the Heritage Foundation, they are the authors of Project 2025, and we are living through the hell of Project 2025 right now. And something tells me that that's a bit of a partisan thing because they said it was the conservative playbook. So as far as I'm concerned, I don't know why we would ever look at the Heritage Foundation and think that it's anything but radical and, quote, addicted to government money potentially. So, Ms. Yentel, before I do that, I'mma come to you, because I want to make sure that I get these things on record. I have a unanimous consent, Madam Chair. It says Donald Trump allegedly asked aides whether Elon Musk's DOGE promises were all bull, and then you know what the rest of it is. Unanimous consent?

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

without objection.

Rep. Jasmine Crockett (D-TX)SPEAKER_01

Thank you so much. I have another one from CBS News: Despite Trump's promised cuts, US spent more than $200 billion more in the first 100 days than last year.

SPEAKER_UNKNOWN

Without objection.

Rep. Jasmine Crockett (D-TX)SPEAKER_01

If for some reason we focused on some efficiency, we may have more money to work towards this deficit that some of my colleagues say that they're concerned about. And I guess, Ms. Yentel, I'm going to run out of time, because if we were going to focus on this deficit, then maybe you wouldn't have your own friends coming out and talking about how we're going to have to lift the debt ceiling $5 trillion, because how else can we pay for the billionaires to keep more money in their pockets? Thank you, and I will yield.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

The gentlelady yields. And for the record, The Heritage Foundation receives no federal funding. I now recognize Mr. Burchett from Tennessee.

Chairman Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_21

Thank you, Chairlady. I think the irony of all ironies here is that our friends across the aisle keep bringing up Elon Musk and what a great person he is. And I guess about a week ago they were they were out to kill him. So this is this is backwards day, as always. Mr. Krikorian, Alejandro Mayorkas served as the United States border czar for 4 years. What did he do before his appointment?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

He's an attorney, and he was on the board of, among other things, HIAS, which is the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society, which is one of the nonprofit groups that resettles refugees and was also involved in this movement of illegal immigrants up through Latin America.

Chairman Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_21

Okay. You think it's a good thing that Mayorkas served at an NGO whose goal it was mass migrant resettlement in the US?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

Well, I disagree with the goal, obviously, but no, I think it was a problem because there is a kind of, conflict of interest there. He was essentially implementing government policy and having these nonprofit groups like HIAS, but many others, sort of as proxies to promote the policies that the administration was trying to implement.

Chairman Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_21

Well, in 2021 alone, this organization received over $40.9 million in grants from the Department of Health and Human Services, State, and Homeland Security. Don't you think that is a direct conflict of interest?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

Yeah, in the sense that some of that was spent on migration causes, yes, I think so, and that probably was at least part of the reason that the House impeached Secretary Mayorkas.

Chairman Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_21

I guess it's a little bit like a congressman becoming a lobbyist.

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

Kind of, I guess. Nothing, nothing personal against anybody here.

Chairman Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_21

That's all right. Well, none of us better be lobbyists or we need to go to jail. At what point do you believe humanitarian aid, um, and assistance becomes material support for illegal activity?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

I'm not sure I'd be able to draw kind of a specific line and say here's where it is, but at this scale, there's simply no way that these organizations did not see themselves as part of a network to subvert U.S. immigration law. The occasional provision of water to somebody who's in real distress is one thing. Setting up a network, essentially a kind of aid station network,

Chairman Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_21

a

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

pipeline from South America to the border is not something that you— it's not comparable in any way. It's not just different in scale, it's different in kind.

Chairman Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_21

Yeah. Myself and the chairlady, she is my cosponsor on a bill to literally defund the Taliban, as it turns out we're sending them close to $40 million a week. I have a State Department document that that was a classified document, it's become unclassified. That's we have given them close to $5 billion with a B. Although that's not big numbers here, I can assure you, in East Tennessee, that's a whole heck of a lot of money. Would you have any idea how many any of y'all have any idea how many NGOs that we believe could be working out of Afghanistan right now? You may have a shot in the dark.

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

No, I have no idea, I'm afraid. Sorry.

Chairman Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_21

Would you believe close to 1,000? 1,000?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

Yes.

Chairman Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_21

And yet Congress, in its infinite wisdom, has taken almost— and we're working on two years now to get this bill out and get it to the Senate and get them to pass it. To me, it's— it is criminal. It is criminal what these organizations are doing. $40 million a week to the Taliban. They throw gay folks off of buildings. They rape women and children, then they stone the women after, somehow it's their fault.

SPEAKER_UNKNOWN

I

Chairman Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_21

These are godless creatures and we are funding them with our tax dollars. And Americans, I believe, are getting rich off of it. I believe that some of the money is flowing back here through some of these NGOs, and I would sure like to to see that paper paper trail solidified in my mind so I could point to it. And if it's a member of Congress again, they need to be led out of here in handcuffs. I want to thank Do any of y'all like to comment on any of that? Kind

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

of. I would like to say, sir, that nonprofit organizations, if they are working in Afghanistan, it's to meet tremendous humanitarian needs. I

Chairman Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_21

can assure you that, ma'am. Yeah, but

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I think conflating nonprofits with the Taliban is deeply dangerous.

Chairman Tim Burchett (R-TN)SPEAKER_21

Well, they actually, ma'am, they actually take a cut off of everything that goes through there, just like the mob would. There's three major banks and they get their money off. It's been documented by government officials, and I've run out of time. Chairlady, I yield nothing back to you.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

Thank you, Mr. Burchett. Honored to be a cosponsor of your Defund the Taliban bill. I now recognize Mr. Moskowitz from Florida for five minutes.

Rep. Jared Moskowitz (D-FL)SPEAKER_20

Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, for allowing me to waive on to today's committee under the rules of the Oversight Committee. I appreciate it, as I tried to waive on to a previous meeting and was barred. So I do appreciate you allowing me to attend today. You know, I was the first Democrat member to join the DOGE Caucus in Congress. Took a lot of crap for it, by the way. And I did it for the right reason, because I thought government can get smaller, government can save money, and government can be more efficient. That polls in the 80s. Most Americans know that.

SPEAKER_UNKNOWN

Um,

Rep. Jared Moskowitz (D-FL)SPEAKER_20

And I thought we were really interested in the E part of DOGE, efficiency, okay? But ask yourself, what have we made more efficient in the 6 months that DOGE has been around? Yeah, there are things we have found that shouldn't exist, but name a department, name a system, name a service that this committee or the caucus or Elon has made more efficient. They said they were going to find $1 trillion. They fell 85% short. Look, government is inefficient, but the DOGE Caucus and process was like, Hold my beer. Let me show you what inefficiency really looks like, okay? The DOGE Caucus hasn't met in months. It had two meetings. Congress wasn't involved at all in the process in the executive branch. Elon's gone. The effort's dead, buried. Rigor mortis is setting in. I feel sorry, ill talking of the dead. I shouldn't do that. But I mean seriously, the Newark Airport, that is the key example for the American people. You want to talk about how did we make government more efficient? We didn't. We made government the Newark Airport. And by the way, now that the national divorce is happening with Elon Musk—and I'm a child of divorce, okay? Who's going to get Big Balls? I'm worried about him in the divorce. The children always get caught in the middle, right? And so I just, if he's out there, I just want him to know we're rooting for him. Certainly we've not made FEMA more efficient. The administrator apparently doesn't know there's a hurricane season. Wait till he finds out there's five categories. We're going to blow his mind. Nothing has been made more efficient by DOGE. No new technology in any of these departments. No lower costs. Hasn't happened, right? We promised to tackle the national deficit and debt. They haven't done that. They've made it worse by the big, bloated abomination bill, okay? Elon has turned on them, but he's telling the truth. The bill will add to the deficit, and it will add to the debt. And so listen, I ask my colleagues, point to me one thing we've made more efficient. If you want to drop the E from DOGE because we've not done efficiency, that's fine. We can rename it. We can always rebrand. They're great at that. But nothing has been made more efficient. Here are the wins for congressional Republicans. You ready? They're going to do a $9 billion rescission bill, okay, which they're going to get rid of Elmo, which the American people were clamoring for, okay. But they're going to add $2.4 trillion to the debt, $9 billion versus $2.4 trillion, and then they want us to cheer for them and give them a trophy like they're a 5-year-old at a soccer game. Everyone gets a trophy for their participation, okay? By the way, these things I'm bringing up, Republicans themselves, including the chairwoman, have expressed their frustration that Congress has not codified anything at all. And so look, it's interesting. Elon just retweeted this: When are we going to flatten the curve? It's fascinating. We're using COVID graphics and COVID slogans. This is the debt. This isn't COVID cases, okay? And yet my Republican colleagues who have always talked about the debt and deficit—I went out, I bought the debt clock that Thomas Massie wears, $99, by the way. I don't know if that's a great deal, but, like, 2-hour battery life. He told me you got to, like, if you dim the screen, it'll last a little longer. Wow, it's still going up. Doesn't seem like these DOGE cuts, right, or this rescission bill have handled anything with the debt or deficit. And so, yeah, look, yeah, Elon is—we love dark Elon now. Oh, yeah, this is this is interesting times, right? And Republicans will say, Oh, wait, he was a patriot. He left his companies. He was doing the right thing. That's what they said for 6 months. Now they're saying, Well, he's just mad because he's losing his EV credits. He didn't get his Starlink thing. They got rid of his NASA administrator, okay? Look, we got to do this together, guys, on a bipartisan basis to tackle the debt. I asked the Speaker to put a budget commission together to get Democrats and Republicans on a bipartisan basis to tackle the debt. But that bill should die. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

The gentleman's time has expired. I now recognize Mr. Burlison from Missouri.

Rep. Eric Burlison (R-MO)SPEAKER_14

Thank you, Chairwoman, and thank you to our witnesses for being here. I just want to remind people there's a huge difference between money that an individual voluntarily gives to a nonprofit or charity and the money that is that is forcibly taken from taxpayers and funneled through this town into into a nonprofit or charity. There is a huge difference, correct, Mr. Walter?

Mr. Scott WalterSPEAKER_19

Absolutely.

Rep. Eric Burlison (R-MO)SPEAKER_14

Mr. Krikorian?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

Yes, of course.

Rep. Eric Burlison (R-MO)SPEAKER_14

Mr. Turner?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

Yes.

Rep. Eric Burlison (R-MO)SPEAKER_14

And Ms. Yentel, wouldn't you agree there's a huge difference

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

There's a difference. Sure. There's a difference in accounting and auditing. And

Rep. Eric Burlison (R-MO)SPEAKER_14

there is. Thank you. Thank you. I'm going to get my time back here. It's a simple question. So, with that being said, the problem that I— it doesn't seem like anyone is recognizing is that we forcibly took money from taxpayers and then these groups, then it was appropriated through the Biden administration billions, billions of taxpayer dollars to organizations that were stood up overnight, organizations that didn't have a longstanding history, these were not not-profits. For example, the Free Press investigation revealed that of the $27 billion that was granted to the EPA through the EPA, $20 billion went out the door to eight nonprofit groups right right after Biden lost the election. $20 billion shoved out the door immediately. Several of them were formed that year in August of or since August of that year. So, Mr. Walter, did your organization, do you guys get billions of dollars when Republicans are in charge?

Mr. Scott WalterSPEAKER_19

We have never taken a penny from any level of government across 4 decades of existence.

Rep. Eric Burlison (R-MO)SPEAKER_14

Mr. Turner.

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

Sir, if I got $2 billion from the taxpayers, I'd be in jail right now.

Rep. Eric Burlison (R-MO)SPEAKER_14

Mr. Krikorian,

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

We have had contracts in the past with the Census Bureau and the Justice Department, but nobody's given us $2 billion. If you know anybody who's in the market for that, I'm giving my phone number.

Rep. Eric Burlison (R-MO)SPEAKER_14

Yeah. So I think that here here's the point to the American people. When the Republicans are in charge, we're not doling out your money to our friends and our family. We're not raiding the coffers. We're not putting America into more debt and more debt and more debt to fund these nonprofits. Look, Mr. Walter, if somebody wants to give to Stacey Abrams' new venture, her nonprofit, they can do that, right? She can stand up a nonprofit.

Mr. Scott WalterSPEAKER_19

Absolutely.

Rep. Eric Burlison (R-MO)SPEAKER_14

But the question is, Mr. Krikorian, nobody wants to open up their checkbook, right?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

I wish. Yeah, I've been working on that.

Rep. Eric Burlison (R-MO)SPEAKER_14

And that's the very reason why they come to this town, is to convince lawmakers, their friends, their family member, their ally, to write a check that no one in the private sector would want to write for for an effort that no one really would want to want to believe in. Mr. Turner, is it true that Biden's senior climate policy adviser, Jahi Wise, directed $5 billion to Coalition for Green Capital?

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

Yes.

Rep. Eric Burlison (R-MO)SPEAKER_14

And let's point out, She worked for the Coalition for Green Capital, right? She previously worked for them.

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

Yes.

Rep. Eric Burlison (R-MO)SPEAKER_14

So she sent money to the organization that she— $5 billion. Is that not blatant corruption, Mr. Turner?

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

And not only that, sir, $5 billion is very difficult to spend. $5 billion is an absurd amount of money. We heard a congresswoman talk about the jet that President Trump got. That was $400 million. This is $5 billion. It's impossible to spend $5 billion ethically.

Rep. Eric Burlison (R-MO)SPEAKER_14

Yeah. To put that in context, I remember being in the state of Missouri, and Missourians at one point we spent, whenever I was a lawmaker, we spent $5 billion for all the school districts in the state of Missouri, okay? So that funded every school district, the state funds, that was $5 billion. How much money did the Biden administration give specifically to Rewiring America initiative, where Mrs. Abrams was brought on as a senior counsel?

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

Approximately $2 billion.

Rep. Eric Burlison (R-MO)SPEAKER_14

$2 billion. So let me get this straight. Progressive loyalists like Abrams and other senior admin officials left the admin and feathered their nest on their way out with with our taxpayer dollars, correct?

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

Correct.

Rep. Eric Burlison (R-MO)SPEAKER_14

Thank you, Madam Chair. I yield back.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

The gentlewoman yields. I now recognize Ms. Pressley from Massachusetts.

Rep. Ayanna Pressley (D-MA)SPEAKER_15

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today. What we are witnessing from occupant Trump, his administration, and Republicans writ large is not governance. It is a targeted, dangerous assault on the independence of our nonprofit organizations. We've seen these attacks take many forms, perhaps most visibly in my own district, the Massachusetts 7th, as the administration continues its unlawful campaign against Harvard University. Trump has threatened to revoke Harvard's tax-exempt status, freeze billions in federal funding for scientific research—to save lives, might I add—and publicly vilify students and faculty, all part and parcel of his attacks on education. But let me make it plain: This isn't just about Harvard, and it's definitely not about government efficiency, the name of this subcommittee. This is about Trump and Republicans punishing people who disagree with them. It is about attacking nonprofits of all sizes that serve the vulnerable and marginalized and stand in the gap for our communities. It's about trying to intimidate every charity and nonprofit in this country and spark a fear that if you speak up, if you do something the Republicans don't like, you could be next: a hospital that provides abortion care, a local food pantry that feeds immigrants, or an advocacy group that fights for civil rights. Donald Trump is weaponizing our tax laws to attack nonprofits at the same time he is pushing for tax cuts for Elon Musk and billionaires. Ms. Yentel, can the president or executive branch legally revoke a nonprofit's tax-exempt status simply because it disagrees with that organization's lawful speech or mission?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

They can't. The statute is very clear that that is illegal.

Rep. Ayanna Pressley (D-MA)SPEAKER_15

Thank you. Republicans think the answer is yes, but that would mean every nonprofit in America is just one tweet away from being targeted by the federal government. I'm proud that in the Massachusetts 7th, community-based organizations are speaking up and fighting back against Republican attacks, and I know they are doing it at risk of serious threat. Ms. Yentel, can you make plain what are the consequences to charities and nonprofits losing tax-exempt status?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Well, tax-exempt status is given to nonprofit organizations that do essential work to meet needs in their local communities in exchange for significant transparency and accountability. And if nonprofits organizations lose their tax-exempt status. It could create significant challenges for them to be able to do their work related to how and where they get their funding, and it could cause them to have to shut down their work altogether.

Rep. Ayanna Pressley (D-MA)SPEAKER_15

Their work, which is to the betterment of us all, which

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

is to

Rep. Ayanna Pressley (D-MA)SPEAKER_15

the collective, our shared constituents.

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Yes.

Rep. Ayanna Pressley (D-MA)SPEAKER_15

Very good. Let's put this in perspective. Trump is firing government workers that administer programs like Head Start and Social Security while also attacking nonprofits that provide resources and supports to vulnerable populations. Trump and his Republican cult do not care about helping people who are struggling. Instead, they want to make them suffer more. Now, before I yield back, let me ask the Republican witnesses, if you all think Trump is right for revoking tax-exempt status for nonprofits for their political views, raise your hand, then, if you think the Heritage Foundation, who wrote Project 2025, should also lose their tax-exempt status. Show of hands? By the logic— I'm not

Mr. Scott WalterSPEAKER_19

aware of any nonprofit that's had its status revoked.

Rep. Ayanna Pressley (D-MA)SPEAKER_15

Again, the question that I'm posing is would you please raise your hand if you think The Heritage Foundation, who wrote Project 2025, should also lose their tax-exempt status? Show of hands.

Mr. Scott WalterSPEAKER_19

It's a perfectly reasonable speech by

Rep. Ayanna Pressley (D-MA)SPEAKER_15

a nonprofit. So, none of you, none of you. The shame and the sham of it all. Before I yield back, Ms. Yentel, I know that you have been harangued intensely throughout today's proceedings. Is there anything that you would like to set the record straight on or respond to in my remaining time?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Thank you, Congresswoman. I would like to use the remaining time to remind us all and every member of this committee of the vital, essential work that nonprofit organizations do in each of your communities for your constituents, and the work that we do to support them in that work. Nonprofit organizations are local. They are transparent and accountable. They are nonpartisan. By law and in practice, and they do essential work to meet the needs of all of your communities and all Americans. Thank you.

Rep. Ayanna Pressley (D-MA)SPEAKER_15

Thank you. I yield back.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

The gentlelady yields. I now recognize Mr. Gill from Texas.

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

Thank you, Madam Chair, for holding this hearing. I'd like to begin with with Ms. Yentel. You've written a lot about anti-racism and white fragility and and things like that. Do you believe that President Trump is a racist?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I don't believe that's relevant to this hearing.

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

Do you believe that he is?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I, I'm not here to discuss my personal beliefs. I'm here to speak about the important work. You've

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

tweeted that he's a vile, despicable racist. Do you believe that much of his housing policy was racist during his first term?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I'm here to talk about the vital work that nonprofits—

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

so you're not going to answer

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

me throughout our country and in your district?

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

It's explicitly racist and deeply harmful. Is that right?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I don't have the tweet in front of me.

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

All right, I've got it right here. You did tweet that. You tweeted that on September 25th, 2020. You said it's explicitly racist and deeply harmful. Do you know who President Trump's Secretary of Housing and Urban Development was during his first term?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Yes.

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

Who is it? Who was it?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

was Secretary Carson.

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

Is Ben Carson Do you believe that Ben Carson is racist or a white supremacist?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

With all due respect, sir, I am not here to talk about former HUD secretaries. I'm here to talk about the

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

essential work that

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

nonprofits do in your district and throughout the

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

country. Okay, we can move on then if you won't answer the question. Are you a racist?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

With all due respect, sir, I'm here to talk about the essential work that nonprofits do throughout the country.

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

Excuse me, that's a very simple question, yes or no question. Are you a racist?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I'm not a racist.

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

You're not a racist? Particularly interesting because according to one of your affiliate charities under your nonprofit umbrella, denial of racism constitutes covert white supremacy. Are you a covert white supremacist?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Sir, I'm here to talk about the essential work that nonprofits—

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

Are you a covert white supremacist?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Can I talk about the work that nonprofits do?

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

No, I'm asking you if you're a covert white supremacist, which according to one of your own organizations, again, denial of racism constitutes covert white supremacy. Would you like to

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

answer the question? I don't know what the question

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

is. So you refuse to answer whether you are a covert white supremacist?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I am here to talk about the essential work that nonprofits do. If you'd like to ask me a question— I am

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

utterly dumbfounded. You are on record right now, and you will not say that you are not a covert white supremacist?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I don't have a definition in front of me. I haven't looked at the definition. I'm not going to answer a question about my personal views. That is— I'm here to talk about the work of nonprofit

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

organizations. No, I want to give you one more chance to do this. Are you a covert white supremacist?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Why are we so off track from the

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

topic? No, I'm asking you a very straightforward question.

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I've heard your question. Thank you, sir.

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

And you're not going to answer whether you are a covert white supremacist?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I would like to answer questions about the work

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

of

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

nonprofit organizations. Thank you.

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

That is really, really astounding. I can answer very directly that I am not a covert white supremacist, and I imagine all of my colleagues can as well. I think you ought to reevaluate what you're doing in the nonprofit sector if you can't answer that in a straightforward way. That is astounding. Let me ask you another question. Do you you believe that it's appropriate to host and promote LGBTQ+ meetups for 9-year-olds?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I am here to support the vital work of nonprofits, and I will say to oppose the federal government targeting groups.

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

My question is, do you believe it's appropriate to host and promote LGBTQ+ meetups for 9-year-olds?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I believe that because

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

one of your affiliate nonprofits does do that

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

organization. That have views different from its own. That is wrong. Whatever party is in control, whatever administration—

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

I think it's wrong. I think a lot of views is wrong.

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Do you

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

think that it's appropriate for young children to use gender transition paraphernalia?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I, I—

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

because one of your affiliated nonprofit organizations gives bras, binders, breast forms, nipples. I'm not even going to repeat this because it's so disgusting for children of all ages.

Ranking Member Melanie Stansbury (D-NM)SPEAKER_18

Breaching decorum and attacking the witness. Can we—

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

I'm not attacking the witness. I'm simply asking a straightforward question,

Ranking Member Melanie Stansbury (D-NM)SPEAKER_18

sir.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

Mr. Gill, I'll be extending your time. You've been interrupted.

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

Thank you. Thank you. Um, do you believe that art exploration camps for transgender and gender-diverse youth of the age of 11 is normal?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

We support the vital work of nonprofit organizations and oppose the federal government opposing—

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

so you refuse to answer any of these questions.

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

You

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

refuse to even answer the question of whether you are a covert white supremacist.

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I'm not here to answer questions about my personal views or my personal— Is

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

that because you don't want to disclose whether you're a covert white supremacist?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

I'm here to talk about the—

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

I'm giving you a chance to tell the world that you were not a covert white supremacist. Will you

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

do that? I'll pass on your chance.

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

You'll pass

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

on that? Thank you, sir.

Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX)SPEAKER_02

That is astounding. That is really astounding. You're a radical far-left activist, and you're masquerading as somebody promoting non— nonprofit, nonpartisan institutions. And you will not even tell this committee that you are not a covert white supremacist. That's astounding. I yield my time back.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

The gentleman yields. Witnesses are reminded you're under oath, and you're here to answer questions to the committee. I now recognize Mr. Casar from Texas for 5 minutes.

Rep. Greg Casar (D-TX)SPEAKER_12

Chairwoman Greene, you and my Republican colleagues have called this hearing that is all about cutting off money to nonprofits for things that are, quote, contrary to the national interest. What we've heard here is my Republican colleagues going after nuns and priests that feed immigrants, going after nonprofits that do scary things like support our queer youth. It is astounding to me. But we do have one nonprofit leader here, Mr. Krikorian. Mr. Krikorian, you're the director of the Center for Immigration Studies, correct?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

Yes.

Rep. Greg Casar (D-TX)SPEAKER_12

And according to your organization's website, you do receive taxpayer funding or have from the Department of Justice and the Census Bureau.

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

Yeah, we did research contracts for them many years ago.

Rep. Greg Casar (D-TX)SPEAKER_12

Got it. And so you do have a taxpayer-funded nonprofit, and your nonprofit, as we've discussed in committee before, has shared articles from Kevin MacDonald, whose work argues that Jewish people, alleged by him, are genetically driven to destroy Western societies. Is that correct?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

We distributed no such article.

Rep. Greg Casar (D-TX)SPEAKER_12

But you did distribute work from this anti-Semite, correct?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

We distributed work all across the spectrum, right?

Rep. Greg Casar (D-TX)SPEAKER_12

From New York

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

time to anyone else.

Rep. Greg Casar (D-TX)SPEAKER_12

Got it. Okay. Your organization has also circulated an article by Holocaust denier John Friend. Is that correct? You said last time we were in a hearing that, yes, you have.

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

We've distributed no articles about Holocaust denial, obviously. But

Rep. Greg Casar (D-TX)SPEAKER_12

you have from Holocaust denier John Friend?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

I don't know, but I assume so. Yeah.

Rep. Greg Casar (D-TX)SPEAKER_12

I mean, your website right here does talk about that.

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

Yeah.

Rep. Greg Casar (D-TX)SPEAKER_12

So I have a yes or no question. Is promoting the work of Holocaust deniers and anti-Semites contrary to the national interest?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

Promoting Holocaust denial and what have you is contrary to the national interest. That's why we haven't done it.

Rep. Greg Casar (D-TX)SPEAKER_12

But you have promoted the work of Holocaust deniers.

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

like John Frank. There were several examples. We've also promoted the work of open-borders people in that effort to present a broad range of views. Absolutely. And we don't endorse one way or the

Rep. Greg Casar (D-TX)SPEAKER_12

So, you have promoted the work of Holocaust deniers, but have you received anything from DOGE asking whether they want to cut your funding? Have Republicans called you in to ask about your nonprofit and said, Hey, we don't like that you've promoted the work of Holocaust deniers? Have you had any funding cut by DOGE?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

or by the city? We don't get any funding to be cut.

Rep. Greg Casar (D-TX)SPEAKER_12

But you have received Department of Justice funding,

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

decades ago? Yes. Yeah.

Rep. Greg Casar (D-TX)SPEAKER_12

And so, look, let me just be real clear here. This hearing is not about taking on nonprofits that are going, quote, against the national interest or who are, quote, extreme. This is all about trying to shut down nonprofits who might share political views that are different from that of the president of the United States. This hearing, they're going after organizations they call radical because they're kind to kids that are having trouble in school, kind to kids that are trying to figure out who they are in the world. They're going after nonprofits, and you, sir, and your nonprofit are saying that the radical people are the priests and nuns that feed the hungry, the nonprofit organizations that, yeah, give shelter to immigrants, that I understand your Center for Immigration Studies does not like immigration very much. But let me tell you, the radical folks aren't the folks out there doing good. The radical folks, that you might disagree with their version of the good, but the radical folks are the people that in your face come to this committee hearing and are sharing through their websites, through their listservs, articles by Holocaust deniers. And you're saying, yeah, we didn't share the Holocaust-denying articles, but we shared some of his other stuff. I'll make my last point here clear. I represent Texas. I have longstanding ties to the city of El Paso, where in 2019, 23 people were murdered at a Walmart. The murderer said, quote, it was based on the Hispanic invasion of Texas. And after the shooting, Mr. Krikorian, you said that the manifesto was, quote, remarkably well-written. Can you tell us which part of his manifesto was remarkably well-written?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

What I meant by that was for that it seemed improbable for a nutcase case like that to have written something that was relatively, at least grammatically correct. That was my point.

Rep. Greg Casar (D-TX)SPEAKER_12

Look, folks here on this committee are trying to shut down nonprofits because they disagree with them. You are a nonprofit. And you, sir, saying that the El Paso shooter had a manifesto— The gentleman's

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

time has

Rep. Greg Casar (D-TX)SPEAKER_12

expired.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

The

Rep. Greg Casar (D-TX)SPEAKER_12

gentleman goes around, comes around.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

The gentlewoman's time has expired. I now recognize Mr. Jack from Georgia for 5 minutes.

Rep. Greg Casar (D-TX)SPEAKER_12

I just want to make clear. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Rep. Brian Jack (R-GA)SPEAKER_09

Thank you, Madam Chair. As one of two Georgians on this committee, yourself included, Madam Chair, I'd like to first rebut the charge from one of our Democrat colleagues that we are today trying to politically tear down Stacey Abrams. To remind our Democrat colleagues, Madam Chair, a majority of Georgia voters have twice rejected Stacey Abrams, in 2018 by 2% and 2022 by 8%. So there's no need for this committee to politically tear down Stacey Abrams when the people of Georgia already have. But this committee is focused on eliminating waste, fraud, and abuse across our government. And again, the purpose of our hearing today is to talk about waste, fraud, and abuse among nongovernmental organizations or nonprofits. And if I could start, Ms. Yentel, as the president and CEO of the National Council of Nonprofits, is it fair to characterize your organization as an informed source of data for nonprofits and NGOs?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Sorry, yes, sir.

Rep. Brian Jack (R-GA)SPEAKER_09

And how many— just an estimate— how many NGOs receive a majority of their money from the government as opposed to citizens, to the best of your knowledge?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

The latest number I saw is that about 27% of nonprofit organizations receive federal funding.

Rep. Brian Jack (R-GA)SPEAKER_09

Does it concern you at all that a non-governmental organization is receiving a majority of its funding from the government?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

Well, I didn't say it was the majority. Let me correct myself. Thank you. 27% of nonprofit organizations receive some of their funding from the federal government. It doesn't concern me, no. The federal government appropriates funds to be used for specific purposes, and they often partner with nonprofit organizations who are best equipped and able to meet local needs with those with that funding.

Rep. Brian Jack (R-GA)SPEAKER_09

Mr. Walter, in your opening statement and your written testimony as well, I think you addressed this. Could you inform and expound upon the issue that I see, and I likewise think you see, that a non-governmental organization is receiving a majority of its funding from the government? To me, that's totally contrary to the title of the organization itself.

Mr. Scott WalterSPEAKER_19

Sure, and the statistic from Candid, which is a nonprofit group, is about 35,000 receive the majority of their funding from government, and that is obviously a dangerous thing. Now, some of them may do good work, but of course, as everybody in Washington, D.C. knows, if you're getting federal dollars, you deserve a lot of scrutiny. The idea that they should just be passed over without scrutiny is is quite unreasonable.

Rep. Brian Jack (R-GA)SPEAKER_09

Without question. I'm sorry, I'm going to continue on my line of questioning. Thank you. Mr. Krikorian, I want to also give you an opportunity just to affirm for the record, I know one of our Democrat colleagues tried to suggest that you were immune from DOGE cuts. I heard you loud and clear, though. The funding and the contracts with Department of Justice and the Census Bureau were, to your point, decades ago. You're not receiving government funding right now.

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

No,

Rep. Brian Jack (R-GA)SPEAKER_09

no Thank you. So, earlier today, Mr. Krikorian, we had the administrator of the Small Business Administration testify before the Small Business Committee. And the reason I mention that is one of the issues we talked about was trying to turn off and eliminate the incentive structure that rewarded illegal immigration over the last four years under Joe Biden's administration. Specifically, we talked about relocating small business offices from sanctuary cities or sanctuary jurisdictions to jurisdictions that honor federal law enforcement law and immigration law. And I bring that up because I'd love for you, in these last 90 seconds, to walk us through what happened these last four years. If you want to look at the incentive structure that rewarded illegal immigration, I suspect you could look no further than a lot of nonprofits that operated on our southern border. So, would welcome thoughts for you in closing in this hearing.

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the, the whole point of enforcing immigration law is to make it impractical to live here as an illegal immigrant. In other words, it's not even just not rewarding. Obviously it's that, but it's also to make it difficult. That's why you shouldn't get driver's licenses for illegal immigrants, that sort of thing. And so what nonprofit groups do during the previous administration did, and frankly even before that, was to make it practical, to make it easier for illegal immigrants to live here illegally, thereby kind of undoing any deterrent effect or any incentive to self-deport, to go home. And so that's one of the things that we need to reverse, is to not just take away the incentives but to make it impractical to remain here so that people will take the administration up on its offer of a free plane ticket home and $1,000 when you get home. There has to be some reason you want to do that. What a lot of nonprofit groups have done is, is take away the incentive to go home, and that needs to change.

Rep. Brian Jack (R-GA)SPEAKER_09

And by the way, 70 to 75% of Americans agree and support President Trump's immigration policies, House Republicans' border priorities. Just closing number from you and statistic. Can you estimate over the last 4 years how much taxpayer money was funding, to your point, the incentive structure we're trying to eliminate today?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

I wish I had a number, but it's all over the— it's billions. But I have no idea how much exactly.

Rep. Brian Jack (R-GA)SPEAKER_09

Billions of dollars. With that, Madam Chair, I yield.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

The gentleman yields. I now recognize Mr. Gosar from Arizona.

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

Ma'am, excuse me. May I ask a question first before the congressman speaks? I apologize for the rare point of order. I wasn't able to ask Mr. Casar before he ran out the room, but he was looking at the witnesses talking about a murderer and said, What goes around comes around. And I don't know what that comment meant. I don't have the luxury of Capitol Hill Police to protect me. In the climate space, we get a lot of death threats. We got a lot of hate. The climate environmental groups originate violence. I just don't know what goes around comes around meant.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

Mr. Turner, we'll, we'll address the you feeling threatened as soon as the hearing has ended. Thank you very much.

Rep. Paul Gosar (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

Thank you, ma'am.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

Yep. Mr. Gosar's recognized for 5 minutes.

Rep. Paul Gosar (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

Thank you, Madam Chairman. Thank you for allowing me to sit in. President Trump has worked tirelessly to weed out the waste, fraud, and abuse of taxpayer dollars by non-governmental organizations, or NGOs. And my home state of Arizona is at the forefront of these issues, where NGOs are shipping illegal aliens into the United States. Question for each one of you: Have you heard of the United Nations Resolution 1996/31, titled "Consultative Relationship Between the United Nations and Non-Governmental Organizations"? Mr. Walter?

Mr. Scott WalterSPEAKER_19

Uh, I'm sorry, no.

Rep. Paul Gosar (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

How about you, Mr.—

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

No, I have not.

Rep. Paul Gosar (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

How about

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

you, sir?

Rep. Paul Gosar (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

How about you, Ms. Yentel?

Diane YentelSPEAKER_16

No.

Rep. Paul Gosar (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

Well, I'm going to give you some Cliff Notes on this one,

SPEAKER_UNKNOWN

okay?

Rep. Paul Gosar (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

It states that the UN gives—if the UN gives money to an NGO that also receives voluntary contributions, the NGO must, must, must disclose the sources of these donations and explain why it's accepted for such a donation. If the UN can do it, why can't we? Now, I'm going somewhere here. In fact, I will read one of the sentences in this UN resolution: Any financial contribution or other support, direct or indirect, from a government to the organization shall be openly declared to the committee through the Secretary-General and fully recorded in the financial and other records of the organization, and shall be devoted to purposes in accordance with the aims of the United Nations. Oh, wow, this might be the only time I agree with the United Nations. May I submit this for the record, please?

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

Without objection. So ordered.

Rep. Paul Gosar (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

My legislation, H.R. 3841, the Putting Trust in Transparency Act—and I think the president has something along the same lines— Requires requires NGOs that receive even a dollar of federal money funding to disclose their extravagant donors, just like the UN does. Wow. What a concept. It applies to all NGOs. You don't have to take federal money, but when you do, you have to pay the piper. Now, if you're an NGO that advocates for limited government but accepts federal dollars, you're a sock puppet for your donors. There should be zero taxpayer-funded advocacy. Mr. Turner, you talked about the government slush funds and transparency in your testimony. We know many leaders of these NGOs are using both public and private funding for their own political grift. Question: What do leaders have to personally gain by fleecing American tax dollars?

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

Uh, the salaries, sir. And this— that's why this whole conversation of how these are puppy-raising organizations and they give food to the homeless. This is all a bunch of crap. These are organizations that fund political Democrats with enormous salaries, pay their consultants that then give donations to political Democrats. And that's why it's billions of dollars hidden under justice, climate, whatever you want to call it.

Rep. Paul Gosar (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

Mr. Krikorian, is it illegal to aid and abet an illegal alien?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

It is indeed. And the question is, the real question is, what is aiding and abetting? Mean, and it has not been defined

Rep. Paul Gosar (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

broadly. I want to interrupt you. Aiding and abetting on, on, I guess, could be defined that. But when you're going into other countries and showing people the way here and then finding out that you can give them, uh, the luxury of things off of, uh, Americans' persons, that's, that would be aiding and abetting, wouldn't you say?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

It sure seems to me, to me, yes, it does.

Rep. Paul Gosar (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

Well, there's a reason why I want this, because if you thought the USAID was riddled with with fraud, wait till you see these NGOs. I love some what what Ms. Yentel was saying, you know, my my ReStore, my Habitat for Humanity Habitat for Humanity. I love that store. I love that store because they're building something. They're trying to put stuff to use and recycle it. But I got this perception over here from this lady that everything is hunky-dory. It's not. You can't violate the United States laws. You can't. Oh, I forgot. Yes, you can. You can violate any law you want to because we're we're we're we're void of a sheriff. Well, we were void of a sheriff last for the last 4 years, we did. But see, we want to see this transparency because we want to have those numbers for the American public. Mr. Walter, are you scared of the American public for sunlight?

Mr. Scott WalterSPEAKER_19

Not remotely.

Rep. Paul Gosar (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

Oh, see, that's why I have another bill, and it's called the LASSO Act. It takes—imagine this, I heard all our friends from the other side of the aisle say that we're attacking Social Security. Wouldn't it be interesting that I took 10% of all the public lands, all the revenues coming off of public lands and off of our oceans, and I put it in the Social Security trust fund. Would that surprise you, Mr. Walter?

Mr. Scott WalterSPEAKER_19

Uh, possibly.

Rep. Paul Gosar (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

How about, Mr. Krikorian?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

It's not my area. I don't know. I'm not familiar with it.

Rep. Paul Gosar (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

I'm putting it in there. Does it look like I'm cutting Social Security?

Mr. Mark KrikorianSPEAKER_07

Right. No, it does not.

Rep. Paul Gosar (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

How about you, Mr. Turner?

Mr. Daniel TurnerSPEAKER_11

No.

Rep. Paul Gosar (R-AZ)SPEAKER_05

Well, Madam Chair, I got to tell you, it's— this is too much fun. I got to let you yield back.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

The gentleman yields. In closing, I want to thank our witnesses once again for their testimony today. I now yield to Ranking Member Stansbury for closing remarks.

Ranking Member Melanie Stansbury (D-NM)SPEAKER_18

All right. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I want to start by saying this is not normal. I say this a lot, but today is certainly no exception because, while we were sitting here, while we were sitting here, Mr. Elon Musk began tweeting again. He says, Call your senator, call your congressman. Bankrupting America is not okay. Kill the bill—in all caps. Nothing is normal right now. Attacking federal agencies and dismantling vital services, firing thousands of federal workers and shattering their lives, stealing your private data illegally and downloading it and using it on AI systems, letting children starve on the other side of the world while gutting vital public health programs, zeroing out funding for public media—none of these things are normal. And certainly, attacking community organizations and vital nonprofits that serve the public good is not normal. But in addition to that, it's also not legal. And that is why there are over 200 federal court cases currently in front of the federal court right now, including dozens of injunctions and restraining orders against the Trump administration for their lawless and illegal activities. Because not only is it not normal, it is not legal. For months, the Trump administration has been threatening that they will undermine the nonprofit status of nonprofits that they don't like. It's very clear that they've been searching for some sort of legal argument that will give them a path forward, and they have yet to find it, because it is not legal. The law is very clear. It is not legal. They cannot go after your IRS status. They cannot go after your nonprofit status. It is not legal. So, if you are a nonprofit in America and you are listening to this hearing and you are feeling frightened, scared, you've received a letter, you've received a threat, or you have been contacted by DOGE or any federal official to audit or enter your nonprofit organization, know your rights. Contact a lawyer. Make sure you understand what your rights are and what you can do to protect your organization. Now, I understand that my friends across the aisle want to talk about corruption, waste, fraud, and abuse. I mean, this is the DOGE Subcommittee. But it is so bizarre to see the high level of gaslighting that happens every moment in this Congress. They want to talk about corruption and nonprofit organizations that do voter registration and help fight the climate crisis and help starving children, but they won't even acknowledge that Elon Musk, who just left the administration, gave himself billions of dollars in private contracts while serving in the federal government; that he, himself, changed out the communications infrastructure for multiple agencies, set himself on a path to get billions of dollars in private DOD contracts; and yes, he did download your data. And we will hold him accountable, because no one is above the law, including the president. So, if we want to talk about corruption, why don't we talk about a president who launches a meme coin and takes hundreds of millions of dollars in payments from foreign governments laundered through his family business? How about we talk about a president who solicited a foreign government for a $400 million plane that he wants to keep privately through his presidential library afterwards? How about we talk about a president that wants to sell pardons for meme coins? You guys want to talk about corruption, or we can talk about dark money and its influence on politics. Now, I understand that some of the witnesses felt a little exposed here today by having facts presented about what their organizations are, who funds them, and what they do. But the facts remain. The facts remain. Project 2025, which is a 900-page document drafted by the Heritage Foundation and over 100 organizations, including those represented here today, is the blueprint for Donald Trump's America. It is being executed by more than 70 administration officials, including the director of the Office of Management and Budget, who is now executing DOGE and is being utilized to attack anyone that they disagree with politically or culturally. That is what this is all about. That is what this hearing is about. And we want all of you out there who are listening to know: This is not normal. It is not legal. And we will fight it every step of the way. I yield back.

Chairman Marjorie Greene (R-GA)SPEAKER_17

I now recognize myself for closing remarks. There's a lot of things that aren't normal, and that's using the power of the government to fund your friends and your family members and to employ former bureaucrats to enact policies that invade our country and hurt our energy, our American energy. Yeah, those things are not normal. And that's why we're talking about them here today. As as we've heard here today, the American taxpayer dollars are being laundered through the revolving door of NGOs and Democrat officials. These pay-to-play schemes are so deep-rooted in the system and are such well-oiled machines, and they must be dismantled immediately. To be clear, we support charitable NGOs that help Americans in times of need, such as during the aftermath of wildfires in California and the hurricane in western North Carolina, Georgia, and eastern Tennessee. We do not support politically connected NGOs who rake in billions of federal tax dollars to serve the Democrat Party and their friends and their priorities. We do not support Democrat officials creating slush funds, writing grants and contracts, and deciding who those funds go to, and then going to work at the same NGO that it just awarded those funds to. Yeah, that's not normal. That is the reality of what we are facing and what we faced for the past 4 years. As our witnesses stated, these corrupt NGOs do not serve the American people. They serve big government and the Democrat Party. If the American people support their climate and other woke causes, they can choose to personally donate to these entities. They can pay for it themselves. The American people are the most generous people in the entire world. In 2023 alone, Americans privately donated over $557 billion of their own money. They should be the ones who decide where their money goes. They can choose if they want to donate to a nonprofit and which nonprofit. The American people are not just generous with their money, but they're generous with their time as well. In 2023, nearly 76 million Americans, almost 30% of Americans, formally volunteered through an organization. The government didn't make them do this. They did it on their own. The government didn't hold a gun to their head and make them volunteer. The government did not hold a gun to their head and make them donate their own money. They did it on their own. However, the government is forcing them to pay for things that they don't support and they don't want happening. The United States is $36 trillion in debt. In 2024, the government spent over $1.8 trillion more than it took it in. And in 2025, the interest on our debt is expected to exceed $1 trillion. Our government is broke. Our government is going bankrupt. Our government is not a charity for the left to use to launder money through to their friends and to former government employees. Notice this. This is extremely important. There's a difference what of what you heard on this committee today. Our Democrat colleagues believe taking money from the American people and forcing them to support the causes that they support is the right thing to do. They don't believe in the mission of this subcommittee, which is DOGE, which is Delivering on Government Efficiency. And that is a mission that has been created in this administration, thankfully to President Trump. And it is a mission that we are continuing here on this Subcommittee on Oversight, and we're proud of it. As a matter of fact, we are delivering government efficiency, and we are proud to let everyone know that we will be voting next week for actual DOGE rescission cuts that this committee held hearings on. And that is producing results for the American people, because most of the time in Congress, all Congress does is to create more laws, create more regulations, and spend more of the American people's dollars. But right here on the DOGE Subcommittee, thankfully to the hard work of its members and staff, we are actually making a difference. And we're going to be cutting government funding, government spending, government waste, fraud, and abuse. In closing, we are incredibly grateful to the Trump administration for directing all federal agencies to review all agency funding to NGOs. These actions taken by the Trump administration will finally provide long overdue oversight over the revolving door of NGO corruption. And we will continue our work here on the DOGE Subcommittee, no matter how much pitching of tantrums that we hear from our Democrat colleagues. We're proud of what we're doing, and we know the American people support it. Thank you.