Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee: "Stopping Illegal Robocalls and Robotexts: Progress, Challenges, and Next Steps"

Rep. Gary Palmer (R-AL)SPEAKER_12

I thank you all for your testimony. We will now move on to questioning. I will begin and recognize myself for 5 minutes. Mr. Bercu, the Broadband Association's Industry Traceback Group conducted more than 3,600 tracebacks of suspected unlawful robocalls in 2024. Generally speaking, what percentage of unlawful robocalls are foreign-originated?

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

Thank you for the question. So I don't have an exact number on, on how many came from foreign foreign countries or foreign entities, but we do know that a lot of the fraud does come from abroad. Illegal telemarketing, we see that sometimes originate at home, sometimes abroad, but a lot of the fraud does originate overseas. And one of the things we've been seeing a lot lately is because so much of enforcement and regulation was focused on who brought the illegal call into the country, what we're now seeing is some of the bad actors spinning out U.S.-based LLCs so that we're tracing it to a U.S. entity, that probably has no, no people in the United States at all.

Rep. Gary Palmer (R-AL)SPEAKER_12

Do we— dealing with the foreign actors, though, that creates some tremendous challenges because we can't charge them with a crime right now unless they're operating in-country. Is there any recourse through civil action? I mean, what, what recourse do you have to deal with foreign actors? And be as brief as you can.

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

Yeah, I think we can do criminal action, and I think that needs to be a priority. The same people attacking us here are attacking other countries as well. I think there's a lot of opportunities for collaboration, and just to give you one anecdote, when the FBI did work several years ago with the Central Bureau of Intelligence in India to raid some of the call centers there, we saw IRS robocalls drop 80% overnight.

Rep. Gary Palmer (R-AL)SPEAKER_12

Ms. Leggin, can you tell us how CTIA's Secure Messaging Initiative works to trace back robotexts, and how effective has this been to to stop illegal and unwanted robotexts?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

Thank you for the question. CTIA's Secure Messaging Initiative was launched to convene the messaging ecosystem and the various players that have a role there in protecting consumers, so that we can facilitate information sharing among the industry stakeholders to complement their existing industry tools to better fight the bad actors, and then to share that information with law enforcement partners at the FCC, FTC, DOJ, and the 50-State Attorney General Enforcement Task Force. To date, we've done over 172,000 robotexts as part of those information packages that we share with law enforcement. And we've done over a dozen of those packages that focus on scams that you all have seen, including government or bank impersonation, package delivery, and AI-enhanced scams as well. We continue to focus on the areas where we're hearing that scams are happening for consumers so that we give that information to law enforcement so they can prioritize their efforts to go after the bad actors and stop the traffic at the source.

Rep. Gary Palmer (R-AL)SPEAKER_12

Mr. Bercu, I want to go back to you. How widely has the STIR/SHAKEN caller ID authentication framework been implemented, and what percentage of the providers still need to implement the framework?

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

So under FCC rules, it's implemented on the IP portions of providers' networks, and we've seen a shift in practice because of, especially, the high-volume illegal telemarketers. One of the things—they, I think because of STIR/SHAKEN, have moved away from spoofing to actually getting real numbers, which STIR/SHAKEN doesn't directly address.

Rep. Gary Palmer (R-AL)SPEAKER_12

Okay. Mr. Waguespack, in your testimony, you were talking about how the private right of action has been abused, and it's been abused instead of protecting people who have been harmed by scam robocalls. It's led to basically a cottage industry that's attacking legitimate companies. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Stephen WaguespackSPEAKER_11

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, in the opening statements from the panel and obviously from the witnesses here, there seems to be a unified focus that these bad actors, a lot of times which are very hard to find, which are located overseas, those are the true ones driving a lot of this issue. The private right of action provisions within TCPA are not utilized to go after those bad actors. Instead, a cottage industry has developed to go after simply where there's opportunities to make money. And also, the provisions of the PRA within TCPA are extremely broad compared to other federal statutes. There's no cap— there's no caps on recovery as you see in HIPAA, no safe harbor provision you see in COPPA, no cap on attorney fees as you see in other statutes. And so it's created a class action factory that's being exploited by just a handful of firms and a lot

Rep. Gary Palmer (R-AL)SPEAKER_12

of those kind of— use of the private right of action. I saw where one of the judgments was for $260-something million. So how do we respond to that?

Stephen WaguespackSPEAKER_11

I think we borrow from other statutes already in place at the federal level. You look to HIPAA to put a cap on the total recovery. They set that at $25,000. There's no cap here. It's up to $15,000 per occurrence under this statute, which absolutely drives those numbers up. And most of these suits, they're not trying to win in court. They're just trying to drive discovery, to make it very expensive and drive settlement. And you're seeing it play out time and time again. In fact, there is one law firm that has done over 155 cases over a three-year period on this front. They've developed a niche market. There is even one plaintiff who has done almost 125 himself on this issue. So you have a handful of folks exploiting this system. That is not helping the consumers that desperately need some of the help from these scam robocalls.

Rep. Gary Palmer (R-AL)SPEAKER_12

Thank you. The chair now recognizes the ranking member of the subcommittee, Ms. Clarke, for 5 minutes for her questions.

Ranking Member Yvette Clarke (D-NY)SPEAKER_00

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Unwanted calls continue to be the top consumer complaint received by the FCC, the Federal Communications Commission. In 2024, Americans received over 52 billion robocalls, and 49% of those robocalls were scams or from telemarketers. Mr. Bercu, how has the robocall and robotext threat landscape changed since the implementation of the TRACED Act and STIR/SHAKEN?

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

So I think we, we've made a lot of progress, but as you're recognizing, there's, there's work left to do. We have seen complaints. They're still too high, but they've dropped pretty dramatically from the highs from several years ago. We've seen some of the bad actors instead of for scam robocalls, there's some day they're about 50% of what they once were for scam robocalls. But we've seen the scammers move from mass robocalls to more targeted, more sophisticated attacks where they know who exactly who they're calling. So that's a little bit of how this has changed over time.

Ranking Member Yvette Clarke (D-NY)SPEAKER_00

Thank you. So we still have more to do. With the work left undone in the fight against phone scams, it baffles me that the Trump administration is undermining the government institutions that combat them. In March, President Trump attempted to illegally remove Senate-confirmed commissioners from the Federal Trade Commission, an independent agency with the explicit mission to protect the public from unfair and deceptive business practices like unlawful telemarketing and robocalls. And in April, in accordance with the Trump administration instruction, the Department of Justice announced plans to dissolve its Consumer Protection Branch, which tries cases targeting large-scale scams against seniors, AI and cybercrimes against consumers, and illegal telemarketing. This just makes no sense. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, FCC, FTC, and the Department of Justice have all been hit by early retirements, terminations, and deferred resignations, and they are all agencies that combat the robocall problem we are gathered to discuss today. Mr. Winters, how does an unstable and depleted FCC and FTC workforce impact the role both agencies play in addressing the robocall scams?

Ranking Member Yvette Clarke (D-NY)SPEAKER_00

Thank you. Last week, President Trump released a detailed fiscal year 2026 funding proposal. If enacted, this proposal would make permanent and add to the number of fired federal employees, including 74 at the FCC, 83 at the FTC, and 32 of which are identified as consumer protection roles. The proposal also cuts $42 million from the FTC, and more than $18 million of which would go directly toward protecting consumers. Mr. Winters, what would happen to the robocall-fighting infrastructure if the federal government pulled back from its role, whether it be from a lack of manpower, funds, or general disinterest in holding scammers accountable?

Ranking Member Yvette Clarke (D-NY)SPEAKER_00

And what do the government actions we have discussed today tell the scammers and fraudsters who conduct robocalls and texts about the priorities of the U.S. government? Do you think actions like these make robocalls more likely to occur in the future?

Ranking Member Yvette Clarke (D-NY)SPEAKER_00

Very well. Well, Mr. Chairman, in their written testimony, several of today's witnesses said Congress must increase support for and prioritize enforcement actions if we truly want to stop bad actors. The experts are calling for more funding and enforcement, not less. And I ask my colleagues across the aisle to listen to them. With that, I yield back.

Rep. Troy Balderson (R-OH)SPEAKER_10

Thank you, Mrs. Clarke. Next is Chairman of the full committee, Mr. Guthrie.

Full Committee Chairman Brett Guthrie (R-KY)SPEAKER_04

Thank you. I thank all the witnesses for being here. I appreciate y'all being here this morning. So, Mr. Bercu, in July 2020, the FCC first selected USTelecom—The Broadband Association's Industry Traceback Group as the single registered consortium to conduct private-led traceback efforts and has redesignated USTelecom's ITG each year since. So could you kind of explain—I know I'm going between two hearings, so if you're repetitive, it helps me to repeat anyway. So how does traceback work, and how has the USTelecom ITG helped the FCC with its efforts to fight illegal robocalls?

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

Yeah, absolutely. So, traceback helps solve for one of the problems, which was when a call is spoofed and we don't know where it's coming from, the carrier doesn't know exactly where it came from. STIR/SHAKEN helps with that, but traceback goes even farther. And we go hop by hop in a semi-automated system through a portal, and we find out exactly where it's coming from. And in fact, in our tracebacks, we've identified over 2,000 providers from 75 different countries. So, we'll trace it all over the world until we can find out who's making the calls and actually disrupt it there. Our data has been used for virtually every robocall enforcement by the FCC, by the FTC, by the state AGs. So, it's been a very successful partnership with the industry and government.

Full Committee Chairman Brett Guthrie (R-KY)SPEAKER_04

Shouldn't the technology be in place, let's say if I'm sitting in Bowling Green, Kentucky, and a phone call is coming from Nigeria that's not in my data in my cell phone or anything like that, should that be blocked? There's technology that can block that from coming. You have to sign up for it, I gather, but there's technology that keeps that from coming to your phone, doesn't there?

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

The challenge is that there's not perfect information at the carrier side about where that call is coming from. STIR/SHAKEN helps with that. I'm optimistic that a recent rule clarification the FCC did last year, that will continue to advance STIR/SHAKEN and the impact there. But that's the challenge, and so there's definitely tools to achieve that, but the carriers don't have perfect information and know that call was coming from Nigeria.

Full Committee Chairman Brett Guthrie (R-KY)SPEAKER_04

My understanding is that when a lot of these robocalls happen, they're not like I'm calling Neal Dunn in Florida and faking him out or something, I'm like I'm a criminal in Bowling Green calling Neal Dunn in Florida. It's usually spam is just thousands of calls instantaneously going out. Can carriers not determine that and block those calls?

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

So that type, it still happens, but that's at a fraction of what it once was thanks to enforcement, thanks to the TRACED Act, thanks to STIR/SHAKEN. Those types of calls are down, depending on the day you look, about 50%. Where we've seen fraud calls, a lot of the robocalls that people still hate, a lot of those are illegal telemarketing. That's the majority of the robocalls people get where it's telemarketing that no one consented to and they're violating the TCPA. But what we're seeing with the scams are the scams are getting more sophisticated, more targeted, where they are targeting individuals.

Full Committee Chairman Brett Guthrie (R-KY)SPEAKER_04

Okay. So, Ms. Leggin, could you talk about how the CTIA is trying to fight help fight these spam calls and robocalls?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

Sure thing. Thank you for the question. Um, as Josh said, um, I think

Full Committee Chairman Brett Guthrie (R-KY)SPEAKER_04

you probably need your mic. I know, though. There you go.

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

Try that again?

Full Committee Chairman Brett Guthrie (R-KY)SPEAKER_04

Yeah, perfect. It was on.

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

Is it on now?

Full Committee Chairman Brett Guthrie (R-KY)SPEAKER_04

Maybe just closer to it. Yeah, closer to it.

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

Sorry, can't see if it's on or not. Thank you for the question. Like Josh's members, the wireless industry are dedicated to protecting consumers from illegal and unwanted robocalls. We helped lead the way in developing the STIR/SHAKEN framework, and we supported this committee's efforts through the TRACED Act to promote the deployment of that. And it's now working well as a call authentication tool to help protect consumers from spoofed calls. It's just one tool in the toolbox, though. So especially over the last few years, we've been developing lots of different call blocking, labeling, filtering tools to complement STIR/SHAKEN as part of a multi-pronged approach to protect consumers from robocalls. At CTIA, we're developing the next generation of call authentication, which is branded calling, or CTIA's BCID, or Branded Calling ID, which gives consumers even more information about who is calling and why to help empower consumers about whether to answer the phone again, as well as protecting them by providing consumer resources that educate them about which calls to ignore, so that we are kind of coming at it from all fronts.

Full Committee Chairman Brett Guthrie (R-KY)SPEAKER_04

I assume that could be a competitive thing between providers to say, Hey, if you use our service, we can help you block your robocalls. I think that would be— So, Mr. Waguespack, how about increasing fines for illegal robocalls? Would such a change affect legitimate businesses? And how can we improve collection of existing fines or overall enforcement?

Stephen WaguespackSPEAKER_11

My phone just spoke, ironically. Obviously, FCC and FTC, I think, have done a really great job working with industry partners to develop, through traceback and other initiatives, to identify those. So we definitely encourage strong enforcement and add that DOJ should also go after these bad actors any way we can. We think going through those channels, as compared to unleashing a small niche cadre of plaintiff firms to go after, quite frankly, credible businesses just because they can't find the bad actors, has been the wrong, minor approach within TCPA. So it's that private right of action that truly, we think, is a disincentive to businesses to reach out to develop those partnerships with their consumers that, quite frankly, most of their consumers want.

Full Committee Chairman Brett Guthrie (R-KY)SPEAKER_04

Okay, thank you. Well, my time's expired and I'll yield back. Appreciate you all being here. Thanks.

Rep. Troy Balderson (R-OH)SPEAKER_10

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Next up is the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. Pallone.

Full Committee Ranking Member Frank Pallone (D-NJ)SPEAKER_08

Thank you so much. And look, I think we all know we have to do more to stop these dangerous and unwanted calls and texts that continue to bombard Americans. I mean, I get so many myself every day, and they're not just harassment, they're causing real harms. The phone scams alone defrauded Americans of $25 billion in 2023. Now, the TRACED Act, which I authored in 2019, required the implementation of the STIR/SHAKEN call authentication technology to help verify the legitimacy of calls. So I want to ask Mr. Barron— no, I'm sorry, Bercu, you run the Industry Traceback Group, which traces calls to their origin as required by the TRACED Act on behalf of the communications industry. In your testimony, you discuss how industry is utilizing this framework to fight the problem of robocalls and to protect consumers from scam artists. What more can industry do to protect consumers from unwanted and dangerous robocalls and robotexts? I'm going to ask you a question and then Mr. Winters, so, a couple minutes.

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

Sure. So, thank you for the question, Ranking Member Pallone. I think the industry—we do have blocking and labeling deployed. STIR/SHAKEN is deployed. I think there's a lot of work there, but I think what our experience shows is that when we're dealing with whether it's the illegal telemarketers, whether it's the criminal fraudsters abroad, they don't stop because it gets a little bit harder. This is their business, so they keep trying to find new paths. So I think what we see with traceback, we are tracing them back. We've adapted to tracing back the targeted scam calls, working closely with the financial sector, other sectors as well. I think that's more of the work to be done, complemented by very aggressive enforcement against the actual bad actors.

Full Committee Ranking Member Frank Pallone (D-NJ)SPEAKER_08

Now thank you. So, in March, President Trump illegally, in my opinion, fired the two Democratic FTC commissioners, meaning that their crucial voices are missing from any discussion at FTC of how to better protect consumers from robocalls and robotexts. And they have my full support in their ongoing lawsuit to be rightfully restored at the FTC, and I think that's the very first step that needs to be taken. But just last year, I introduced, and I mentioned also, the Do Not Disturb Act, a comprehensive piece of legislation that aims to build on the success of the TRACED Act, and it would ensure that scam artists using illegal robocalls or robotexts can't explain— can't exploit new loopholes as new technology makes it even easier for fraudsters to steal from Americans. So, Mr. Winters, I have two questions. You've got 2 minutes. Do you agree there's a need for legislation to provide update to current laws like last year's Do Not Disturb Act? And do the FTC and FCC need more authority from Congress to fight text message scams? Is it just money and enforcement, or they actually need more authority, if you will?

Full Committee Ranking Member Frank Pallone (D-NJ)SPEAKER_08

But do they need more authority, though?

Full Committee Ranking Member Frank Pallone (D-NJ)SPEAKER_08

Well, thank you. And, Mr. Chairman, as you can see, I think there's a question of more more authority that's needed for the agencies. But I'll repeat what I said earlier, which is they also need more resources and staff. And cutting back on staff and firing some of the commissioners is certainly not the way to go if you really want to try to improve the situation with robocalls. And so, I would not only ask that we try to move towards more authority to fight these scams, but also provide the resources, not cut the resource, not cut the staff. And with that, I'll yield back.

Rep. Troy Balderson (R-OH)SPEAKER_10

Thank you, Mr. Pallone. I am up next, so welcome, everybody. I'm glad you were able to join us. Ms. Leggin, I will direct my questions to you this morning. According to the FCC, text message scams have increased 500-fold in recent years. How have scams become more sophisticated over the years?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

Thanks for the question. CTIA and our members are dedicated to protecting consumers from scam and spam text messages, while also making sure that legitimate ones go through, because we know that consumers open and read and trust their text messages as one of the most preferred platforms for communications today. Over the years, we have seen bad actors increasingly target text messaging because they know that consumers open and read those texts. So, as bad actors have evolved and enhanced their tactics, we've evolved and enhanced our defenses as well. So, over the years, we've enhanced our blocking, filtering tools by enhancing them with machine learning and AI. We've launched the Secure Messaging Initiative, which is our work to partner with law enforcement to give them actionable information about bad actors so that they can go and take traffic off at the source. And those are working to help the FCC, the FTC, DOJ, and the attorneys general enforcement task force in giving them information they can go after bad actors with.

Rep. Troy Balderson (R-OH)SPEAKER_10

Okay. Thank you very much. You also answered my follow-up. Are mobile carriers and other industry players doing enough to address the growth in scam and illegal robotechs?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

Our industry is really dedicated to this issue. Um, as just one metric, we've blocked over 55 billion texts last year while also making sure that the legitimate ones go through and supporting over 2 trillion, uh, legitimate texts. So it really is always a balance, but we've dedicated a lot of different resources to, um, enhancing our protections against bad actors. Um, In terms of more things we can do, again, we welcome help from Congress in prioritizing resources towards enforcement so that the agencies we work with can take on more of those cases, do more investigations, and go after the bad actors to stop that traffic at the source.

Rep. Troy Balderson (R-OH)SPEAKER_10

All right. Thank you. How well are mobile carriers engaging with states and other entities for information sharing and enforcement? For example, with the scam toll texts, did mobile carriers pause delivery and contact state toll authorities to verify the legitimacy of the numbers?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

Our members were focused on the toll road scams as well as the other versions of that as part of our work to protect consumers from all those types of scams that impersonate legitimate businesses. The wireless carriers, as well as other partners in the messaging ecosystem, including providers of other types of messaging apps that were targeted by that type of scam, including over-the-top, online-based, and app-based messaging, all were working together to share information with law enforcement. To help them find the bad actors responsible and take them off the field.

Rep. Troy Balderson (R-OH)SPEAKER_10

Okay. Thank you. How can we get mobile carriers to better engage and pull their weight to stop the flood of robotechs at the same levels robocalls— at the same level they did for robocalls? I'm sorry.

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

The wireless industry and our messaging ecosystem partners are really focused on this issue. For years, we have been seeing bad actors really target the voice network because there were not blocking and other protections in place until the last few years. In text messaging, we've actually had the ability to block and to filter and to employ upfront vetting and verification for decades. And so, for a long time, the messaging platform was really protected from bad actors. Of course, bad actors are getting more sophisticated and over the last few years targeting text messaging more. But this has been an area of focus and a priority for our members for years, and we continue to dedicate significant resources toward protecting consumers while maintaining trust in text messaging.

Rep. Troy Balderson (R-OH)SPEAKER_10

Okay, thank you very much. I yield back my remaining time. Next up is the gentlelady from Colorado, Ms. DeGette.

Rep. Diana DeGette (D-CO)SPEAKER_19

Thank you so much. So I just got back, along with many of our colleagues on this committee, from a conference on artificial intelligence, and so I'd like to talk with you about that today because I think it's really being implemented in a disturbing way by scammers to find new ways to deal with Americans. A lot of us have been hearing these chilling stories about how somebody gets called by somebody who they think is their child or their parent and asked for money, and the voice sounds eerily like their loved one. So, Mr. Winters, I want to ask you, how has AI technology been used to create more sophisticated robocall and robotext scams that target consumers?

Rep. Diana DeGette (D-CO)SPEAKER_19

Yeah, so this kind of goes without saying, but because of this degree of sophistication, even when you have an educated consumer, it becomes much more difficult to identify these scams.

Rep. Diana DeGette (D-CO)SPEAKER_19

Right. So if we're not going to rely on the on the consumers by education, Ms. Leggin, what more can industry do to filter these messages and prevent them from ever getting to the victims?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

So as Mr. Winters said, it is a balanced approach to make sure that we are blocking the messages that we don't want consumers to receive and they don't want to receive, while also making sure that legitimate ones go through.

Rep. Diana DeGette (D-CO)SPEAKER_19

That's right.

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

So, with AI-enhanced scams, for example, there are aspects of that that we can also detect using AI by analyzing vaster quantities of data, by enhancing our existing tools and algorithms and frameworks, and then by complementing those with large fraud teams to help protect consumers from scams.

Rep. Diana DeGette (D-CO)SPEAKER_19

And do you think that that the federal agencies have the necessary authorities to fight against these scams, or can companies do it themselves? Do they have the authority to do it?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

We value our partnerships with all the law enforcement entities, including the FCC, FTC,

Rep. Diana DeGette (D-CO)SPEAKER_19

Right. Do you think they have enough authority to do it?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

We think—

Rep. Diana DeGette (D-CO)SPEAKER_19

yes or no will work.

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

We think that the best authority, the best way for them to continue to help us is by prioritizing resources towards enforcement.

Rep. Diana DeGette (D-CO)SPEAKER_19

resources. So that means Congress and the administration have to adequately fund them, right?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

We continue to work on

Rep. Diana DeGette (D-CO)SPEAKER_19

that. No, no, yes or no will work.

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

Yes.

Rep. Diana DeGette (D-CO)SPEAKER_19

Okay. Mr. Winters, do you think they have enough authority?

Rep. Diana DeGette (D-CO)SPEAKER_19

And why is that?

Rep. Diana DeGette (D-CO)SPEAKER_19

Thanks. We look forward to working with you to see what new authorities we want. I just have a little time left, so I want to ask you one more question. In the bill, the great big bill a couple of weeks ago that we're now learning all of the things that were included, one of the thing that was included in the reconciliation package was a 10-year moratorium on state and local enforcement of their own AI bills. Does a 10-year moratorium on state AI bills prevent states from using evolving technologies to help fight this program? And do you think that's something Congress should look at, look at, Mr. Winters?

Rep. Diana DeGette (D-CO)SPEAKER_19

Thank you. I yield back.

Rep. Troy Balderson (R-OH)SPEAKER_10

Thank you. Next up is my good friend Mr. Griffith from Virginia.

Rep. Morgan Griffith (R-VA)SPEAKER_13

Let me start in a little bit different direction than I planned on going. Ms. Leggin, you were asked about adequate funding a minute ago, and I got the sense that while you were told to give a yes-or-no answer, you want to see the Federal Trade Commission and others receive adequate funding, but it seemed to me that you were not trying to get into the debate as to what the definition of adequate funding is. Am I correct that that I read your body language correctly, that you didn't want to get into that debate, but you do want them to be adequately funded?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

That's right. It's up to each agency to allocate resources to their enforcement teams, but what we've said is, and what we're seeing with our work with our enforcement partners, is that sometimes the consumer fraud protection folks lack the personnel or resources they need to go after cases. So we welcome, you know, information collection or just a way to try to allocate the existing resources.

Rep. Morgan Griffith (R-VA)SPEAKER_13

But it's also true that AI may make this much more efficient. And so we're looking forward to that, too. Is that not correct?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

That's right.

Rep. Morgan Griffith (R-VA)SPEAKER_13

I got to move on to what I really was going to go after, both for you, you and Mr. Bercu. The good news is is that the fraud, while terrible, is on the downward slope, and I hear from my constituents all the time about receiving robocalls. And a couple of years ago, it was all about the fraudulent stuff and they were concerned about that. But I will tell you, in the last year, particularly in the last few months, the real concern has become Medicare, and particularly Medicare Advantage solicitors calling up the folks in my district. And I have an older population, generally speaking, than most districts, and they're just driving them crazy with all these calls. And a 2023 survey estimated that 30% of Medicare Advantage-eligible beneficiaries receive seven or more calls a week. I got to tell you, Mr. Chairman and witnesses, I've had constituents who have told me if they only got seven a day, they'd be thrilled. That would be a down number. So what can we do, because this is a huge issue in my district, what can we do to make that situation better?

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

Yeah, I think that those calls, if they're robocalls, if they're telemarketing calls, they may be in violation of the TCPA, they may be violation of the Telemarketing Sales Rule.

Rep. Morgan Griffith (R-VA)SPEAKER_13

So how do we get them to use— because I've asked, I've said to folks as I've been talking with them, well, have you put yourself on the do not call list? And they say yes, but it doesn't seem to change anything. So how do we make that better?

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

So, one of the things is, and we'd be happy to work with you, we've got to traceback those calls. We have to see who is ignoring the law, get that information, get that to the right enforcement authorities to go after them. And we've seen success with that. Like, the auto warranty campaign was the same. We worked very closely with the states and the FCC, and that went from the most prolific robocall campaign in America to basically zero right now. So, that is that's the answer there.

Rep. Morgan Griffith (R-VA)SPEAKER_13

All right. Well, I'd be glad to work with you anyway, because when I start going to events and I start hearing this at a majority of the events I go to, whether it be a street festival or a meeting of folks, that tells me we got a problem. Ms. Leggin, I got the toll texts.

SPEAKER_UNKNOWN

Uh,

Rep. Morgan Griffith (R-VA)SPEAKER_13

of course, I called my staff assistant and said, how come you haven't kept my account up to date? Not realizing I was on the road. And she said, it's a scam, don't worry about it. But I've gotten a number of those things since then and some others, and apparently somebody out there thinks I need a new job. And I click delete or report as junk and delete. Does that do any good?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

It certainly does. That's one of the key tools that the wireless industry and our partners on the device side have made available for consumers to delete, report junk. You can also forward your scam text to 7726, which spells SPAM. And both of those are key inputs for wireless providers and our messaging partners in making our algorithms and filtering and blocking more sophisticated and responsive to what we're hearing from consumers out there like you and others in this room that have gotten those types of texts. In addition, we look at those types of scams, and we develop evidence on them and refer them to our law enforcement partners for investigation through our Secure Messaging Initiative as well, so that we're working to target the bad actors responsible.

Rep. Morgan Griffith (R-VA)SPEAKER_13

All right, I appreciate that. Mr.—and I hope I get your name right—Waguespack.

Stephen WaguespackSPEAKER_11

Pretty good. Yeah.

Rep. Morgan Griffith (R-VA)SPEAKER_13

All right, not too bad. Um, I don't know that I, I really have a question for you, but I'll just make a comment. As a recovering attorney, I hate the whole strike suit incident or industry where they get a niche and they just go after things. I want people to be able to sue when they're legitimately harmed. Um, and I just make the offer that if I can work with you in any way to try to make the law so that it, that it lets the legitimate complaint go forward but stops the strike suits where they're just trying to make it expensive and get a settlement— you, you talked about that earlier— just let me know what I can do to be of assistance. I will try.

Stephen WaguespackSPEAKER_11

I appreciate that. That's the balance we're looking for, and the balance is found in other federal statutes all across the code.

Rep. Morgan Griffith (R-VA)SPEAKER_13

All right, I appreciate it. Yield back.

Rep. Troy Balderson (R-OH)SPEAKER_10

Thank you, Mr. Griffith. Next up is Mrs. Trahan.

Rep. Lori Trahan (D-MA)SPEAKER_17

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, I'm glad to know that the frustration of unwanted robocalls is as universal in Congress as it is with our constituents. According to one estimate, Massachusetts residents received over 43 million robocalls in the month of May alone. Each of these unwanted calls wastes the precious time of the people we represent, and there are real risks that the caller on the other end is a scammer looking to swindle them out of hundreds or even thousands of dollars. The scourge of robocalls and robotexts must end, and yet the Trump administration does seem determined to cut enforcement agencies like the FCC and the FTC who fight for Americans every single day. Mr. Winters, can you just explain in brief the role that the FCC plays in combating robocalls and texts, and how how this agency works with private sector partners to do that?

Rep. Lori Trahan (D-MA)SPEAKER_17

Thank you. In February, President Trump signed the Executive Order 14215, incorrectly named Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies. This EO strips the independence from many of our regular regulatory agencies, including the FCC. And the FCC is essential in the fight against illegal robocalls, making the actions of the Trump administration all the more concerning. Mr. Winters, again, what effects will there be in the fight against illegal robocalls and texts if the Trump administration undermines the independence of federal agencies like the FCC?

Rep. Lori Trahan (D-MA)SPEAKER_17

Thank you. The FCC's budget justification lists cracking down on illegal robocalls as a performance indicator for the agency, which is a necessary priority. Unfortunately, the Trump administration has doubled down on its mission to hamstring the federal government's ability to hold robocall scammers accountable by proposing to eliminate 74 positions at the FCC in the fiscal year 2026 budget. The FCC, however, is not alone in fighting robocalls. Industry has, in many instances, implemented solutions and voluntarily adopted best practices. Yes, they can always do more, but as lawmakers, we should look to build upon their good work while identifying gaps where the federal government can add value. Ms. Leggin, can you discuss the importance of public-private partnerships in combating robocalls and robotexts and suggest specific ways in which Congress can accelerate the efforts that industry has already taken?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

Thank you. Public-private partnerships are a key tool in helping us go after bad actors so that we're stopping robocalls and robotexts at the source. CTIA's members participate in the U.S. Telecom Industry Traceback Group to help identify the bad actors behind illegal robocalls. And our members on the wireless side and then also throughout the messaging ecosystem participate in CTIA's Secure Messaging Initiative, which convenes the messaging ecosystem to share information among each other and with our law enforcement partners across the federal agencies and with the State Attorney General Enforcement Task Force so that they can take that information and go after the bad actors as well.

Rep. Lori Trahan (D-MA)SPEAKER_17

Thank you. Thank you to all the witnesses. I appreciate it.

Rep. Troy Balderson (R-OH)SPEAKER_10

Thank you. Next up is the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Dr. Joyce.

Chairman John Joyce (R-PA)SPEAKER_09

Thank you, Chairman and Ranking Member, for holding today's hearing, and thank you for all of the witnesses who have agreed to testify today. When I return to my district, Pennsylvania's 13th Congressional District, I hear about the pervasive and unrelenting illegal robocalls and texts that my constituents are faced with, often on a daily basis. So many of my constituents are senior citizens. I sat down and did a senior citizen seminar twice in the district in the last month, and you hear recurrent themes. You hear the, Grandma, Grandma, it's Mike. I'm in Mexico and I'm in jail. I need your help. I need it. It sounded just like Mike. I hear that repeatedly when I have these roundtable discussions with seniors. And it seems like the scammers are getting creative and finding actually new ways to trick us with incredible-looking text messages and very convincing grandma and grandpa calls. Scammers have even learned how to incorporate AI into intimidating loved ones to convince them to turn over personal information—credit card numbers, bank numbers. Too many of my constituents are risking their retirement savings, and subsequently they lose faith in the system that we have set in place to protect them. We need to do better. We need to both educate consumers and anticipate the next angle of attack that these scammers will take, particularly with the assistance of our partners in law enforcement and the DOJ. Mr. Bercu, your testimony mentioned a project piloted by the Industry Traceback Group, ITG, in partnership with banks and carriers aimed at tackling fraud and consumer financial losses. Can you elaborate on the pilot goals and successes thus far, and is there collaboration with law enforcement?

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

Yeah, absolutely. I, I think some of the most promising work our industry is doing is partnering across sectors because it, it the, the fraudsters are hurting our collective customers, whether that's banks or, or the carriers and your constituents. So what we've been doing is working with banks to help them identify where their number has been spoofed in a few carriers. So working with the carriers, getting examples of calls that the carriers see from the bank's number, getting that back to the bank, and the bank can tell us, oh, those weren't us. And we're— what we're doing with that is 2 things. We're able to trace that back Find out who made the calls, find out where this— who was spoofing the number, get that information in the hands of law enforcement to take action with it, but also help the bank identify and look at those customers and say, oh, did any of these customers that got the fake call pretending to be us have a suspicious transaction, and helping to find that. And I think criminal enforcement has to be a key here because that's— we know the scammers will use any tool available to them, and they won't stop just because it gets a little harder. They keep evolving. And so the key is going after them, and we stand ready to continue to support that.

Chairman John Joyce (R-PA)SPEAKER_09

And I agree, the scammers certainly have the ability to be incredibly crafty, devious, and downright evil in this regard. Talk to me about how you interface with financial institutions to make them aware of these situations.

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

So, I think that's actually one of the promising things going on across the industry is that we work directly with a lot of the financial institutions. We work with tech companies, others. Marriott was mentioned before. We worked very closely with Marriott to trace the calls purporting to be Marriott. So that's what we're doing, but there's broader conversations now about how how the industries can even keep growing and continue to integrate. In my opening testimony, one thing I mentioned I think Congress can do to help here is a safe harbor for that fraud information sharing because I think there are questions about rules and risks when you do share information. So I think that's one way we can continue to unlock those good partnerships.

Chairman John Joyce (R-PA)SPEAKER_09

And thank you. Thank you for being proactive in this. Mr. Waguespack, many of my constituents are in rural central Pennsylvania, where internet connectivity is difficult and educational digital resources on illegal robocalls are inaccessible. How can federal agencies and industry partner, coordinate efforts to better educate consumers, specifically in rural areas with limited internet access and those digital resources?

Stephen WaguespackSPEAKER_11

Well, I think, on leaning into what has been done since TCPA was first initiated, where you have private-sector solutions going in and working with—we've talked a lot about FCC and FTC, but also the local law enforcement and local financial institutions on the ground there, putting that initiative out there. Mr. Bercu talked about some of the information sharing that are done with the banks to prevent the fraud. There's also a second level down. It's a good example of the education program. Through the Bankers Association, they've armed about 2,000 banks out there to talk to their consumers. Here's a hit list of the things we will never ask you for, so if you get an email that has this, this, this, or this, ignore it, it's spam. Here's how you call us back. And so we can use the private sector, I think, to develop some of that messaging and make sure consumers can be informed of the decisions they need to be able to fight back on their own.

Chairman John Joyce (R-PA)SPEAKER_09

I thank all of the witnesses for presenting here today. Mr. Chairman, my time has expired, and I yield back.

Rep. Troy Balderson (R-OH)SPEAKER_10

Thank you. Next up is the gentlelady from Texas, Ms. Fletcher.

Rep. Lizzie Fletcher (D-TX)SPEAKER_15

Well, thank you and thanks to our Chairman Palmer and Ranking Member Clarke for convening this hearing today. Thank you to our witnesses for all of your testimony. I think it's been really helpful for all of us, and as we've heard throughout the morning, abusive robocalls and robotexts are not just nuisance, right? They're danger, and we need to do something about that. I appreciate the work that you are doing and also the issues that you've brought to our attention this morning and the conversation around what we can do about it. And I am concerned, as several of my colleagues have mentioned, that we're hearing consistently from you we need more enforcement, we need more coordination, we need adequate resourcing, and we need adequate staffing to be able to do some of the things we're doing in a complex and challenging environment where the technology is moving faster than Congress, faster than our agencies, and what we're seeing at the same time is that those resources, both in terms of money and staff, are being cut from the administration as we speak. They are asking Congress to rescind additional funding. They're stopping funding. And so, as several of my colleagues have noted, agencies like the FCC, the FTC, and the DOJ have actually utilized the law that we passed together, the work that we've done collaboratively to understand the problems and really conduct meaningful enforcement that has stopped scammers. And now it seems like the administration is taking the cops off the beat in this area and in many others. Mr. Winters, you noted in your testimony and you mentioned just earlier this morning that the Trump administration has taken steps to dissolve the DOJ's Consumer Protection Bureau. And I believe you just said the Consumer Protection Branch of the DOJ. You just told us this morning that they had successfully prosecuted a case and stopped scammers who had— I guess it was against the data brokers who had sold the data of 30 million Americans. And that data winds up in the hands of criminals who use it in these scams and others. So I think it's really important that we understand that these agencies need to be fully funded and that shuttering something like the DOJ's Consumer Protection Branch, this expert-led enforcement agency, really puts our communities at more risk. It's not something we should be doing. You also mentioned in your testimony the CFPB, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, and the work that it has done in this area, and the administration is also shuttering or attempting to shutter that agency that Congress created and that has been really critical to protecting consumers. And that's what we're talking about in this hearing: protecting consumers, protecting American citizens from these scams. I think that what we're hearing this morning also calls on all of us on this committee to redouble our efforts to do our work around creating comprehensive privacy laws that protect American consumers, because what I'm hearing from you and what we're seeing is that our data is being stolen, is being sold, is being used, and it's being used by these scammers. So can you take, with the time that we have, just can you talk a little bit more about cutting the DOJ's Consumer Protection Branch as well as the CFPB and what that would mean, Mr. Winters, in terms of protecting American consumers in this larger context? If you want to talk, too, about just the effort to take away the staff and the funding for these agencies that are protecting consumers from robocalls and robotexts that we're all clearly worried about and clearly concerned we want to address, how is this going to help or hurt us in that effort?

Rep. Lizzie Fletcher (D-TX)SPEAKER_15

Well, thank you, Mr. Winters. I've gone over my time. I do have more questions for the panel, so I will submit them for the record, and I will yield back. Thank you.

Rep. Troy Balderson (R-OH)SPEAKER_10

Thank you. Next up is Mr. Tonko.

Rep. Paul Tonko (D-NY)SPEAKER_03

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Americans received over 52 billion robocalls in 2024, which is nearly 200 calls for every American adult. Americans also have lost $25 billion annually to scams that begin as spam calls. Unfortunately, we know that scammers often target older Americans who are especially vulnerable victims to these scams. Older adults, in particular, lost $4.9 billion through all types of fraud last year alone. I know I listened to the exchange that you had with my colleague Representative DeGette, but I want to delve into this with the senior perspective. Certain scams put even the most technical-savvy at risk, scams that, in some cases, mimic law enforcement, hospitals, or Medicare, or the voices of family members seeming to be in danger or in need of money. So Mr. Winters, what specific tactics do scammers use to target seniors and other vulnerable groups?

Rep. Paul Tonko (D-NY)SPEAKER_03

And what prevention strategies have been the most successful in that fight against illegal robocalls and texts?

Rep. Paul Tonko (D-NY)SPEAKER_03

Thank you. And Ms. Leggin, how is the wireless industry working to protect that older community and otherwise more vulnerable customers?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

That's a priority for the wireless industry. And to do that, we work with AARP and we support their National Elder Fraud Coordination Center, which works to take reports of victim losses in and then bring cases against bad actors. We also were happy to participate in the FTC's Stop Senior Scams Working Group, and we led the working group focused on text messaging issues, which was a cross-sector effort to explore ways that we could do more to protect older Americans from scams. We also participate in other working groups with consumers directly to try to push out our educational materials so that they know which texts not to click on, which calls not to answer. And we have those resources on our website and our members' websites as well.

Rep. Paul Tonko (D-NY)SPEAKER_03

Thank you. And the AARP that you mentioned has said that, I quote, "The alarmingly high levels of fraud against older adults underscores that stronger protections are urgently needed." So as technology evolves, so must our ability to combat these illegal and harmful calls and texts. Mr. Bercu, what additional tools does the Industry Traceback Group need to protect Americans from fraudulent calls or fraudulent texts?

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

Thank you for the question. So I mentioned in my opening testimony, I think there's ways to build on what's working and reinvest in our work. We are always adapting to the threat. A few years ago, we were only really tracing illegal robocalls. Now we're tracing threatening calls, we're tracing targeted scams, and I think that doubled last year, how many we traced. So we're always adapting, and I think Congress's support on through targeted immunity, through extending the cycle, will allow us to continue to invest and innovate.

Rep. Paul Tonko (D-NY)SPEAKER_03

Well, I thank you very much, and with that, I yield back.

Rep. Troy Balderson (R-OH)SPEAKER_10

Thank you. Next up is the gentlelady from New York, Ocasio-Cortez, please.

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY)SPEAKER_16

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Winters, I want folks back home to kind of understand why this problem is happening. The average American receives about 15 robocalls each month, but obviously, depending on who you are, you could be experiencing that in a day. And we know that it wasn't always like this. So, I want folks to understand what the root of this problem is so that they also understand what some of our solutions can be. Is it fair to say that essentially back in the day, calls used to be routed through phone wires, through your telecom company. And so your telecom provider, whether it was Verizon or AT&T or T-Mobile, they were responsible for routing the calls, and therefore they were kind of able to trace who was making them. Is that right?

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY)SPEAKER_16

And then as internet applications started to grow, then voice service providers and calls over digital services started to really expand in their infrastructure. And so it wasn't just your, your cell phone provider or your even your landline provider that was in charge of your phone calls. It then became kind of these other kind of internet companies, right?

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY)SPEAKER_16

Yeah, so that it is, it was really in that switch from from call and telecom providers to the expanding growth of internet providers that really kind of allowed the volume of these calls to blossom? Because we weren't just talking about telecom regulation, but internet regulation, right?

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY)SPEAKER_16

And so it's not it's no longer about who your personal provider is. As you said, you could have 8, you could have 10 of these companies routing this call. So you have the person who wants to make this robocall, and then it just leapfrogs between all these intermediary companies. Mr. Winters, how many of these intermediary companies currently exist, and does the government have any way to keep track of who these actors are?

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY)SPEAKER_16

Yeah. And if these kind of abusive companies, sure, they have to register, but if we find that they're not complying, the consequence just seems to be that they get delisted from the database, correct?

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY)SPEAKER_16

Okay.

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY)SPEAKER_16

And, and, but without any additional penalties, is there anything to stop these companies from just immediately getting relisted?

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY)SPEAKER_16

So if you're a bad actor in this space, someone that's really perpetuating spam calls, in some cases fraudulent calls, you can be found to be breaking these rules, you can get delisted from the FCC, and then you could just turn around and it's, what, a hundred bucks to—

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY)SPEAKER_16

Yeah, it's $100, and maybe you'll have to pay it, maybe not. Um, so clearly there's an enforcement problem here on keeping these these bad actors out of the space. Um, in your opinion as a consumer protection advocate, how can we as Congress work to strengthen some of these protections, and what do you think some of the best solutions here are?

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY)SPEAKER_16

Thank you very much. I yield back.

Rep. Troy Balderson (R-OH)SPEAKER_10

Next up is Mr. Mullin for five minutes.

Rep. Kevin Mullin (D-CA)SPEAKER_05

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you all for being here today. Americans lose billions of dollars every year to phone-based scams. We must crack down on illegal robocalls and robotexts. With the recent enactment of laws that further empower enforcement agencies, there has been progress toward protecting people from these predatory practices, but not enough. I want to recognize former Congresswoman Anna Eshoo, who represents a district neighboring mine. She's represented that for over 30 years before her recent retirement. I want to thank her for her leadership on this issue. She introduced key legislation like the HANG UP Act and the Robocalls and Texts Act, and I'm proud to help uplift some of that work that she led on in this committee and hopefully carry it forward in the future. As we've heard today, more must be done to keep up with the rapidly advancing technology and the increasingly sophisticated tactics that scammers are using. Enforcement agencies need the tools and resources to stay ahead. The more sophisticated the methods, the more likely people fall victim to them. As more companies integrate AI into their products, it's becoming even harder for consumers to distinguish legitimate communication from fraud. Mr. Bercu, you mentioned AI-generated messages are harder to detect and can present challenges for enforcement. How can the government and industry better coordinate to establish safeguards to limit harm to people from illegal calls using AI?

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

Thank you for the question. I think the fact that the criminal actors behind these calls use AI just underscores they will use every tool, every channel available to them to defraud Americans. And I think that's one of the challenges we have, is they're already violating the law with impunity. They're committing fraud. That's violation of the criminal code. So that's one of the things I think we think, is we do need a national strategy. We do need to prioritize criminal enforcement because they're going to continue to use the tools. And from the carrier perspective, there's not going to be a good way to know which tools they're using because, as Mr. Winters pointed out, they're so far upstream from where our members sit.

Rep. Kevin Mullin (D-CA)SPEAKER_05

Thank you for that. We know that certain people in our communities are particularly vulnerable, like seniors and individuals with limited English proficiency. Mr. Winters, what can the FTC, in coordination with other agencies, do to be proactive in protecting vulnerable populations from these kinds of scams?

Rep. Kevin Mullin (D-CA)SPEAKER_05

And you also strongly assert, Mr. Winters, in your testimony that the FTC's overall enforcement capacity has been diminished by the recent unlawful firings of two Democratic commissioners and deep staff and budget cuts at the agency. So how are those agency cuts going to hinder FTC's ability to advance its efforts to combat illegal robocalls and robotexts?

SPEAKER_UNKNOWN

uh,

Rep. Kevin Mullin (D-CA)SPEAKER_05

Thank you for that. I yield back.

Rep. Troy Balderson (R-OH)SPEAKER_10

Thank you. Next up is the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Pfluger.

Rep. August Pfluger (R-TX)SPEAKER_14

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for the witnesses being here. I want to take a little bit different approach on this and just talk about a little bit of the impact that I'm not sure has been fully discussed today, and that is to physicians. And I'm in the process of getting screenshots of the physicians in my district, and one in particular who is showing me kind of the impact of about 20 a day that they're getting that is really preventing these calls. These robocalls are preventing that physician from being able to to take calls from the ER or from labor and delivery. And it's pretty concerning. Apparently the apps that they're using to either diagnose or have conversations with their patients—the Abridge app is one of them, and then there's another app, and I'm not familiar with these, so I'm not the expert on this—but you can't use those apps when calls are coming in. And so I took a I just wrote down from the screenshot the calls that recently came in. This was from last week on Friday: 2:31, 2:53, 2:57, 3:48, 3:53, 3:58, 3:59, 4:38, and 4:48. And in that period of time, starting at 2:30, ending at almost 5:00 p.m., there were a number of patients that were disrupted. So I know we're beating a dead horse with just how how painful these things are, but that actually is pretty serious when they can't take a call from the labor and delivery section saying, Hey, we have an incident here that you need to get up pretty quick and deliver. So I'll start with Ms. Leggin. And by the way, thank y'all. I know we're all working together to try to solve these. But to what extent do you see TCPA and TRACED being effective? And then I'll go a step further. We've had these discussions already in this hearing, but the sense of urgency and what else needs to be done to prevent that physician and all the other physicians from having to deal with that in the middle of what could be an emergency situation?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

Thank you for the question, and that it seems like a serious issue. TRACED and the TCPA are great tools that are helpful in helping bring enforcement actions against bad actors under the TCPA if you're violating those consent, autodialer, prerecorded voice provisions. But unfortunately, bad actors don't care about the TCPA or other laws, so they're going to spam you no matter what. And that's where our work with law enforcement partnerships on the calling side through the ITG or on the texting side through the Secure Messaging Initiative to bring investigations against those bad actors so that we're stopping those at the source are really helpful.

Rep. August Pfluger (R-TX)SPEAKER_14

Yeah, go ahead.

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

And I was just going to say, to support those efforts further, you know, you've heard me say throughout this hearing, we, we would welcome help from Congress in prioritizing resources towards enforcement to bring more cases against those bad actors.

Rep. August Pfluger (R-TX)SPEAKER_14

What do you think we can do— and anybody's open to answer this— what do you think we can do for hospitals in general You know, for those that are providing emergency services, because nobody's using a pager anymore. It's all cell phone. Maybe they need to go back to that. But what can we do, you know, to think creatively to really stop that for those— I mean, every constituent of mine wants it stopped, but are there specific ideas?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

That's a good question. You know, it's a really challenging issue, especially when we want to make sure that critical public safety public health services need to get their calls through. You know, the same tools that we apply to protect consumers can protect, you know, the personal lives of physicians and other things. Call blocking, call labeling, call filtering services, and then combining that with enforcement so that we're stopping those at the source.

Rep. August Pfluger (R-TX)SPEAKER_14

This particular physician goes through, deletes, and reports junk and reports it and does all that. So it sounds like it's been a continued issue. I'll go to Mr. Bercu. When we look at the gaps and just kind of building on this same theme, are there specific things that you would have us do to address those gaps? And if so, maybe describe how they affect, let's just go with the physician sector, the

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, by the way, I think we have the right framework. Mr. Winters was talking about the Robocall Mitigation Database, and couldn't agree more. We need to find ways to quickly find the the bad actors in that database, get them out. The FCC does require that providers have to to do due diligence about who they take traffic from. So we we're developing the data to see who keeps taking traffic from these shell companies. So I'm I'm optimistic we'll continue to make progress. There are, as Ms. Leggin mentioned, there are blocking and labeling in specific use cases. I know we work sometimes with some companies that sit on the inbound call side for a hospital, and we've had successful—and they have really sophisticated tools to check see which is the consumer, which is not. So those are some of the things I'd recommend that the doctor looks into.

Rep. August Pfluger (R-TX)SPEAKER_14

Thank you. Time's expired. Yield back.

Rep. Troy Balderson (R-OH)SPEAKER_10

Thank you. Next up is Mr. Allen. For 5 minutes, please.

Rep. Rick Allen (R-GA)SPEAKER_02

I want to thank Chairman Palmer for convening this hearing. And you've probably heard this today from every district in the country, but my constituents frequently express their frustration with the persistent barrage of illegal robocalls, robotexts. They're a nuisance, and they're a significant distress, anxiety, particularly for our elderly population, because some of these folks are up to no good and are taking advantage of of our constituents. These communications often exploit our most vulnerable individuals, and it's really eroding our trust in the telecommunications systems. I look forward to receiving updates on the progress made under existing laws and exploring actionable next steps to protect consumers and strengthen enforcement. And I want to thank our witnesses for being here with us. Mr. Bercu and Ms. Leggin, there has been a lot of public and private action in the fight against illegal robocalls, both under the Telephone Consumer Protection Act and under the TRACED Act. Generally, robocall numbers have been on a downward trend over the years. If illegal robocalls trends have dropped, why am I still getting so many complaints from my constituents?

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

Yeah, I think some of the members sort of expressed that. There are really positive numbers. There is a 50% reduction in scam robocalls. Um, not everyone's having the same experience. Some people do get more than others, so that is an ongoing challenge. But there are— I, again, I think we have the right framework. I think we, we are tracing back those illegal calls. Some of those are illegal telemarketing. We're tracing them back. That information is making its way to enforcement. Um, and in terms of the scam calls in particular, we know that they're going to keep going. Just because it gets a little harder doesn't mean they say, okay, we're going to go do some other line of business. They're just going to keep coming through a new channel, through a new method, through a new new shell company. And so that's really where we think the answer has to be, actually going after them with criminal enforcement. And we think that should be a priority.

Rep. Rick Allen (R-GA)SPEAKER_02

Ms. Leggin, would you care to add to that?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

I agree with what Mr. Bercu said. The framework that we have in place continues to show progress, and we continue to build upon that with new tools and enhance those tools with machine learning and AI and the latest technologies to make them even better. And I agree that more focus on enforcement by taking those bad actors off the field is where we need help. We saw a group of state attorneys general, for example, recently get a judgment against prolific robocaller Jonathan Spiller, so that that prevents him from starting new businesses or otherwise kind of popping up again after getting an enforcement action against him. So, things like that will continue to help make a big difference and continue to drive those robocall numbers down.

Rep. Rick Allen (R-GA)SPEAKER_02

So we are identifying these bad actors. It is just a matter of prosecuting them?

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

Yeah, in many cases we are, or we are getting good data that can lead to further investigation. It is one of the reasons I am actually optimistic about continuing to work across sectors, because we can now combine some of our data with some data that the banks can get—get that through—Ms. Leggin mentioned the AARP National Elder Coordination Council—really aggregate data so that—because that's one of the challenges. If it's one scam, it's hard to get a prosecutor involved, but if you can show it's a multi-million dollar scam, you can.

SPEAKER_UNKNOWN

So

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

that's where some of the work, uh, needs to go.

Rep. Rick Allen (R-GA)SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, thank you. Mr. Waguespack, in April 2025, FCC issued a notice of proposed rulemaking that proposed a 2-year timeline for providers to continue to maintain non-IP infrastructure to either complete their IP transitions or fully implement one or more of the available non-IP caller ID authentication frameworks in their non-IP network. In your opinion, is the FCC's 2-year timeline reasonable?

Stephen WaguespackSPEAKER_11

Well, I would yield to my colleagues to the right on more of the technical timeline there because they're the ones that are going to be implementing some of that. I would say from our perspective, if I could just, since I got the mic for a second, bring in another universe of recipient of a lot of these robocalls that we haven't really addressed yet is what lies in between business and consumers a lot of times is small business, because a lot of those recipients, they're kind of part consumer, part business owner. Their cell phone becomes their business phone, their residential phone, etc. They can't qualify for Do Not Call if it's considered business or not. That is a vulnerability that we hear a lot from our members on small business, and it's also a vulnerability that's being exploited some from some of these predatory lawsuits I mentioned earlier in my opening statement.

Rep. Rick Allen (R-GA)SPEAKER_02

All right. Yeah, you've answered my second question there about really— no, the impact of particularly in rural areas and other non-IP networks. Ms. Leggin, in your testimony, you discussed how CTIA and its wireless partners are embarking on the next generation of call identification solutions, namely branded calling. What is branded calling, and how will it help reduce scam and scam calls?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

Thank you for the question. CTIA is building the next generation of branded calling by bringing together the wireless ecosystem players to give the consumer more information about who is calling and why. And branded calling, as the name suggests, means that the logo of the caller comes through. This framework provides verified identity of the caller and builds upon the STIR/SHAKEN framework to make that information that comes through to the caller even clearer and better. So by doing so, we help empower the consumer to make better choices about, do you want to answer the call or not? And we think that will be a really helpful tool in continuing to protect consumers from scam calls.

Rep. Rick Allen (R-GA)SPEAKER_02

Good. Thank all of you. And, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

Rep. Troy Balderson (R-OH)SPEAKER_10

Thank you. I now recognize the ranking member, Clarke.

Ranking Member Yvette Clarke (D-NY)SPEAKER_00

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I have a request for unanimous consent. Representative Sorensen sent a letter to the chair and myself about the importance of taking action and his bipartisan QUIET Act, which addresses some of the issues raised here today. I ask for unanimous consent for his letter to be entered into the record.

Rep. Troy Balderson (R-OH)SPEAKER_10

We received it, the letter, and seeing no objection, accepted. Thank you.

Ranking Member Yvette Clarke (D-NY)SPEAKER_00

Thank you.

Rep. Troy Balderson (R-OH)SPEAKER_10

Next up, the gentleman from the great state of Ohio, Mr. Rulli, for 5 minutes.

Rep. Michael Rulli (R-OH)SPEAKER_06

Thank you, Chairman. The question will be directed at Ms. Leggin. This is a bipartisan issue, and I think the most engaging, sensitive constituents what we have, I would say, over 60. When I was young, I used to listen to a lot of talk radio in the '80s and the '90s, and it was a subject then, and it's just a subject as much right now today. They want to enjoy their peace and their tranquility, and these robocalls just keep ruining it. So, what percentage of illegal robocalls and spam text messages originate abroad, and where do they primarily originate from? What part of the world?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

Thank you for the question. It's a mix that— of robocalls and robotechs that come from both the U.S.—

Rep. Troy Balderson (R-OH)SPEAKER_10

Ms. Leggin, your mic, please.

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

Sorry, microphone. It's a mix. It comes from bad actors that are both located in the U.S. and outside the U.S. And we take seriously our work to protect consumers from illegal robocalls and robotexts that originate abroad. It continues to evolve, but Southeast Asia is one area, including India and the call centers there that Mr. Bercu mentioned earlier, continues to be a source of illegal and unwanted robocalls and robotexts. So, we support efforts like those at the FCC, where they have memorandums of understanding with international partners, with states, to collaborate on enforcement against the bad actors located outside the U.S.

Rep. Michael Rulli (R-OH)SPEAKER_06

Out of curiosity, do you think that America has migrated into an evolution where we've gotten better than we have in the early '90s, or not really?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

We've definitely gotten a lot better than the early '90s, and especially over the last 10 years. On the robocall front, we've had a lot of attention to this issue from this committee through the TRACED Act, from the FCC and other agencies giving us more tools, more authority to go after bad actors in this space. And there's been a lot of innovation in the texting space as well over the years to make our onboarding, our filtering, our blocking, and consumer reporting tools even better, and we continue to enhance those every day.

Rep. Michael Rulli (R-OH)SPEAKER_06

Thank you so much. And then I have a question for Mr. Bercu. To fight against robocalls and spam texts, the FCC has formed international alliances and partnerships with countries like Australia, Brazil, Canada, the EU, Romania, Singapore, just to name a few. How should we move forward with helping the FCC handle enforcement with countries that are bad players like in Laos and in Cambodia, who seem not wanting to get involved in the government? How can we get more involved with these countries that are allowing these illegal procedures to happen?

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

Yeah, that's a great question. And

Rep. Randy Weber (R-TX)SPEAKER_18

is your mic on?

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

Oh, sorry. That's a great question. So, I think one of the things we'd love to see is—that's why we do need a national strategy, because the same people attacking us here are also attacking consumers in Canada and UK and Thailand. I think as we go around the world, there's more of a coalition of the willing to go after the criminal actors here. And so, the FCC has those MOUs with other countries, but we also need it coming from the criminal law enforcement authorities at that level and working together to take down some of these entities. And organized crime really is what we're going after with those.

Rep. Michael Rulli (R-OH)SPEAKER_06

Do you think it's obtainable?

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

I think it's obtainable. I think we've seen some other countries take very aggressive actions. For example, Myanmar is now building out—there's reporting about these fraud centers in Myanmar. The Thai government shut off the power, so they are going to generators. But I think there's room to continue to build on those and build those collaborations because again, those same entities are attacking us all over the world.

Rep. Michael Rulli (R-OH)SPEAKER_06

Outstanding. Thank you so much, and with that, I yield my time back to the chair. Thank you. Next up is the gentleman from Texas for 5 minutes, Mr. Weber.

Rep. Randy Weber (R-TX)SPEAKER_18

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Leggin, I'm coming to you. I had to be at another hearing for a long time. I apologize if this is redundant. In many cases, robocalls are so believable that millions of Americans fall prey to the various scams every year. However, the recent rise in robotexts, as we call them, adds a new layer of complexity. What makes combating spam and scam texts—why is that more difficult than robocalls?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

Thank you for the question. CTIA and our members throughout the messaging ecosystem take seriously our goal to protect consumers from illegal and unwanted robotexts. Voice and text are different technologies, and they present different ways that bad actors target consumers. So we've got different problems with different solutions. So, it's just a different ecosystem where we still bring blocking tools to bear in the texting space. For example, we blocked over 55 billion scam texts just last year. But that's just one piece of—

Rep. Randy Weber (R-TX)SPEAKER_18

Can I give you my cell phone, have you block some more?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

Happy to help, yes. And we continue to up those efforts and bring new tools to bear. And in messaging, we've got tools throughout the message flow, including upfront vetting and verification services that help identify whether legitimate businesses are who they say they are and helps deter bad actors from getting on the platform in the first place. We've got sophisticated algorithms, machine learning, AI, and fraud teams that look at ways to protect consumers from unwanted and illegal text messages in the middle. And then we've got consumer reporting on the back end so that you can delete and report junk, or you can forward your spam text to 7726. And the wireless industry takes those in to use to enhance our protection tools so that we're taking in that consumer feedback to make those tools even stronger.

Rep. Randy Weber (R-TX)SPEAKER_18

Do you know, and this is a little bit, this question may be a little bit to the left, do you know or how are y'all able to determine how many texts a company sends out at any given time? Can they send out a million, 10 million? Can you verify, identify that, know that?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

So companies use a variety of different platforms to send out their communications. So to us, that's not something that we look at. What we look at is trying to make sure that we're looking for suspicious patterns, indicators of spam or other illegal things, to target those to protect consumers from those. Otherwise, you know, it's really a balance to protect consumers while also making sure that legitimate business communications go through. So like I said, we blocked $55 billion last year, but we also let, you know, supported $2 trillion texts to go through. So it's always a balance.

Rep. Randy Weber (R-TX)SPEAKER_18

Well, I think a trillion of those came to my cell phone. Mr. Bercu, I'm going to come to you. As you're probably aware, there are varying levels of jurisdictional oversight when dealing with either foreign or domestic entities. Now, I missed the first half of his question, so if this is redundant—did he ask you about this?

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

Uh, he might, he may have, but I'm happy.

Rep. Randy Weber (R-TX)SPEAKER_18

Well, what are some of the unique challenges regulators and law enforcement face when dealing with foreign-originating robocalls? Is that what y'all just went through?

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

Uh, we, we went through an aspect of that, but I'm happy to talk about it. We've, we've traced In our tracebacks, we have traced calls—

Rep. Randy Weber (R-TX)SPEAKER_18

And how they vary from domestic ones.

Joshua M. BercuSPEAKER_07

Yeah. So, I think in our experience, both on what we have seen through our tracebacks, but also some public reporting, I think what we see is that illegal telemarketing, often that is homegrown and there's entities—John Spiller Ms. Leggin mentioned earlier—that might be more local. But we do see a lot of the fraud comes from abroad, especially the scaled fraud. So, in terms of other countries, I think those those same actors are attacking everyone around the world. I think there's a lot of work to be done collaboratively with other countries. We've traced those. We do trace those. We find those entities. We sometimes see entities log into our portal saying they're a U.S. company, but log in from abroad. So, I think we're building that dataset and it can arm criminal law enforcement to go after

Rep. Randy Weber (R-TX)SPEAKER_18

Okay, very quickly, our first responders, medical professionals, and other critical service providers often deal with individuals who are at their most vulnerable, making them a prime target for potential scams and attacks. So the question is going to be—but I've got one to ask real quick—how do we address spoofing related to hospitals, police, government agencies, and other public service entities? And I want to hone in on this as a question for the two of y'all. We'll go back to you, Ms. Leggin. How about, have y'all ever encountered what's known as swatting?

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

Yes.

Rep. Randy Weber (R-TX)SPEAKER_18

And how, how often, or would you put a percentage on that, and what do you do about

Sarah LegginSPEAKER_20

So, we take swatting very seriously. That's where someone calls in a fake emergency and has a police team go to your house. That's something where we're not really seeing that as much on wireless 911 calls as much as it's on other networks. But regardless, the same tools that protect consumers from illegal and unwanted robocalls, like call authentication, like STIR/SHAKEN, call filtering, call blocking, and then tracing back calls after they've gone through to find the bad actor responsible are all things that we encourage to address swatting, as well as partnerships with law enforcement to go after that criminal activity.

Rep. Randy Weber (R-TX)SPEAKER_18

Okay, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.

Rep. Troy Balderson (R-OH)SPEAKER_10

Thank you. Seeing no other members here, uh, wishing to ask questions, I would like to thank our witnesses again for being here today. Without objection, that will be the order. Pursuant to committee rules, I remind members that they have 10 business days to submit additional questions for the record, and I ask that the witnesses submit their response within 10 business days upon receipt of the questions. Without objection, the subcommittee is adjourned.